|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 9, 2014 15:06:54 GMT 10
Can anyone help in decoding the genetic calculator for red rumps? I'm new to red rumps, but not genetics.... These guys can be very complex.
First question: why is their no category for normal green cock split to the many colors?
Second question: when I enter a blue (turquoise) cock and a platinum hen it comes up:
natural/parablue(turquoise) platinum Cock and
Natural/parablue (turquoise) hen. Are they calling the green color "natural"? Why would I get green birds? Why does the cock say natural/ parablue platinum with no line for a split gene between the parablue and platinum?
Question 3: it uses the term "natural opiline and natural orange. I'm not understanding their use of the word "natural". Please explain......
Can an anyone simplify how to input the cocks and hens information? It looks like the cocks information is entered in the first column 1.0 and the hens info in the second 0.1. Is this correct? It is very confusing to a newbie. Thanks for any help!
|
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 10, 2014 9:20:34 GMT 10
Hi Nancy,
Gencalc can be confusing at first! I assume it is Gencalc you have tried to use?
I can clear up all of your questions but I'm short of time this morning - hopefully I will have more time this afternoon and can help you with your questions.
cheers,
Mike
|
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 10, 2014 16:01:04 GMT 10
Hi Nancy, Gencalc can be confusing at first! I assume it is Gencalc you have tried to use? I can clear up all of your questions but I'm short of time this morning - hopefully I will have more time this afternoon and can help you with your questions. cheers, Mike Thanks Mike! I am using Gencalc. Any help on those questions is very appreciated! Nancy |
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 11, 2014 11:02:44 GMT 10
Hi Nancy, OK, got some time to answer the questions. Gencalc assumes any bird which has no buttons ticked in the visual column is a normal. If it was anything but normal then one or more of those buttons in the visual column will have a tick. Well actually three questions here  Natural means exactly that - the colour that is it's natural colour in the wild -ie a normal in avicultural terms. The reason you would get normals from that pair is that the cock bird has a recessive gene - blue, which means for that colour to appear in any offspring the hen also has to be carrying that gene, either visually or as a split. If you paired them and got any blue babies that would indicate the hen is split to blue. In a simlar vein, the hen's platinum gene is a sex-linked gene which means genetically she is unable to pass that gene to her daughters, but can pass it to her sons. However for a son to appear platinum his father would also have to be carrying the platinum gene , at least as a split, so that the son can end up with two platinum genes in his DNA and hence show platinum colour Finally the use of a slash between multiple splits is an avicultural practise not necessarily a genetic scientist practise. Gencalc is written by a geneticist. It means opaline on a green body colour - where you see natural with Red-rumps insert green and you will get the visual appearance. That is right - 1.0 is standard notation for males and 0.1 for females - again usual genetic usage. hope this helps - ask away if you hit more problems. Gencalc is a fantastic tool once you get into the terminology - especially when you get into the more complex mutations with lots of splits. If you haven't already I suggest doing some background reading about parrot genetics - just what is meant by recessive, dominant sex-loiked etc. cheers, Mike |
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 12, 2014 1:11:08 GMT 10
Thanks so much! Wow, what an answer. I bred Himalayan Persians for years and their genetics were child's play compared to this. In them, if a dominant color was there, one of them was wearing it . If I bred two recessives together I only got resessives. That is why a having a natural thrown from two recessives opaline/orange split cock and orange hen just did not make any sense to me. How do I avoid the green factor, or can I?
|
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 12, 2014 1:39:27 GMT 10
What I have is an opaline/orange split cock and an orange hen. When I put them in the calculator this is what I get. See how they designate the cock and hen? They put the word "natural" in front of both colors. They are visually opaline and orange. Am I inputting the info wrong? Also, what is the difference between natural orange and natural/orange?
1.0 natural /opaline(red) orange
x 0.1 natural orange
% from all 1.0
25.0% 1.0 natural orange
25.0% 1.0 natural /orange
25.0% 1.0 natural orange /opaline(red)
25.0% 1.0 natural /orange opaline(red)
% from all 0.1
25.0% 0.1 natural orange opaline(red)
25.0% 0.1 natural opaline(red) /orange
25.0% 0.1 natural orange
25.0% 0.1 natural /orange
Calculated on 11 Mar 2014 16:32:26 , Prague
|
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 12, 2014 10:44:12 GMT 10
A couple of things there - opaline is a sex-linked gene not recessive. And in birds sex-linked operates the opposite of mammals so that a hen cannot pass it on to her sons but a cock can pass it on to his daughters, and they will show the mutation rather than be split. You will be pleased to know that both recessive and dominant work the same in parrots as mammals . Secondly I think you must have entered opaline as a split rather than as visual - make sure the opaline button is clicked in the visual column and not the split column. If I enter the birds as 1.0 cinnamon split orange and 0.1 as orange I get 50.0% 1.0 natural orange /opaline(red) 50.0% 1.0 natural /orange opaline(red) 50.0% 0.1 natural orange opaline(red) 50.0% 0.1 natural opaline(red) /orange If you go to www.lad-puta.cz/species.php and look at the Red-rump mutation at the bottom of the page, there are photos of both a natural orange and a natural opaline orange - both are superimposed on the normal colour, modifying that colour. cheers, Mike |
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 12, 2014 13:19:36 GMT 10
Thank you so much! That really helps. That was the key, seeing the orange superimposed on the natural. Makes more sense now. Not sure if my hen is a normal orange or an opaline orange. She's sitting on chicks, so I guess I'll have to wait to look! Thanks for taking the time to educate! Nancy
|
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 17, 2014 9:55:56 GMT 10
Just bought 2 more breeding pairs. Having Fun! They are colors I'm not seeing in the GenCalc. Can you tell me what I can expect from these??
Australian Blue/silver cock x platinum silver/platinum silver hen.
These notations were from the breeder.
AND
opaline to rubino cock x lutino/opaline hen
Again this is his notation.
I see no way to enter silver or rubino. I know rubino and Lutino are somewhat related correct?
Very pretty colors! Thanks for any help!
|
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 17, 2014 21:16:23 GMT 10
Just bought 2 more breeding pairs. Having Fun! They are colors I'm not seeing in the GenCalc. Can you tell me what I can expect from these?? Australian Blue/silver cock x platinum silver/platinum silver hen. These notations were from the breeder. AND opaline to rubino cock x lutino/opaline hen Again this is his notation. I see no way to enter silver or rubino. I know rubino and Lutino are somewhat related correct? Very pretty colors! Thanks for any help! The photos I've seen labelled Australian Blue look to me to be just the usual recessive blue - while I don't have a clue what they mean by silver - maybe platinum? And how do you get a female that is a platinum silver split to platinum silver - doesn't make sense to be a mutation and be split to the same mutation - confirming my suspicion the breeder doesn't know what he is talking about! I suspect the silver is just a recessive faded mutation so perhaps just put faded in the calculator and substitute silver for faded in the answers. The suspicion about the breeder is reinforced by the second pair. A rubino is a combination of lutino and opaline - in Gencalc you will click on both the ino and opaline buttons in the visual column. Then there is the hen - a hen cannot be split to a sex-linked gene - so she cannot be split to opaline. She must be a straight lutino, no splits. That pairing will give rubino hens and lutino split opaline cocks - so sexable when they feather up in the nest. Red rump mutations can be a mine field - especially when breeders with little or no understanding of genetics try to give genetic information. Not helped by breeders giving popular names designed to sell a bird rather than the proper name to mutations. cheers, Mike |
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 18, 2014 5:23:13 GMT 10
Once again, you rock! I thought so! Nancy
Would that faded gene be the reason I'm seeing "pastels"? I saw a "natural" that looked pastel. Also an orange pastel. Is this the "faded" gene?
|
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 18, 2014 6:06:15 GMT 10
Would that faded gene be the reason I'm seeing "pastels"? I saw a "natural" that looked pastel. Also an orange pastel. Is this the "faded" gene?
|
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 21, 2014 11:41:28 GMT 10
Would that faded gene be the reason I'm seeing "pastels"? I saw a "natural" that looked pastel. Also an orange pastel. Is this the "faded" gene? You are getting beyond me here Nancy - I was never too involved in Red-rump mutations, and my knowledge is a few years out of date, however I will writ ewhat I can - about th emutations in general since I don't know how it applies specifically to Red-rumps. Faded mean that there is a slight reduction in the amount of black pigment in the bird, often giving a brownish tinge to the colour. It doesn't change any other colour except by reducing the black pigment which may possibly have an effect on that colour if black pigment is also present in the feathers. Superficially it can result in a bird looking rather like a cinnamon but a true cinnamon will have no black at all, while a faded will retain some shades of grey where black was previously present. Pastel result in a reduction in intensity of all colours - so greens and blues for instance are a lighter colour than they would be in a normal bird. So Faded diminishes the intensity of just black, while Pastel reduces the intensity of all colours. cheers, Mike |
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 21, 2014 11:49:45 GMT 10
|
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 21, 2014 12:33:29 GMT 10
Thanks!! I'm thinking that the genetics will work out the same if what I have is pastel. If I sub the word pastel for faded it should mix the same as both are recessive . The breeder had lots of "pastels" and they were gorgeous! I plan to use 2 pair with my orange hen and cock. After a couple generations I hope to have some orange pastels! We'll see what I get. Maybe one day I'll be the one with the genetic answers. Thanks for the FB page. That is great! Nancy
|
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 26, 2014 10:17:27 GMT 10
|
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 27, 2014 4:20:36 GMT 10
Thanks Mike! Tried to purchase but she is only shipping to AUS. I've sent her a message asking if she would be willing to ship to US if I pay additional postage. Any into would be very helpful! I've been told by the breeder that the silver is the result of the platinum gene. I posted pics on the red rump Facebook account you recommended. I suspect I have: aust blue/platinum cock and platinum blue hen. The second pair I suspect is: platinum blue cock and platinum blue hen. They are posted under Nancy Norwood in the red rump Facebook page. I can't figure out how to paste a link here! See what you think. I have a bird with the cinnamon gene, but after reading a cockatiel blog on the platinum gene and it's effects they recommend not having it in the mix. They say it muddies the water (so to speak) members.optusnet.com.au/~geoffwatts1/Platinum.htmlSee what you think. Another question. Platino (platinum xLutino) is recognized on Gen calc and labeled platinumino. When you go to put this in to use this for a breeding cock it will only let you put platinum on visual and lutino on split or lutino on visual and nothing on split. This doesn't seem accurate as both are supposed to be visual. Is this just something in the program that needs fixing? I plan to keep on of these cocks and use for breeding but I can't enter the info correctly. www.cockatielsociety.org.au/articles/genetics.htm. She states the gene is both visual. Thoughts? Thanks again!! Nancy |
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 27, 2014 13:36:44 GMT 10
Hi Nancy,
I can send you a PDF of the article - I will scan it later today and email it to you,
Where about in America are you?
cheers,
Mike
|
|
|
|
Post by nancy on Mar 28, 2014 9:36:26 GMT 10
I did get to order the magazine. She shipped it. Thanks sooooo much!
I am in Southern California. About 30 min north of San Diego. Perfect weather all year!
I have the birds indoors now but I can see an aviary in my future!. They are all so very beautiful. I was a bio-chemistry major and I so enjoy the genetic challenge. Maybe someday I will be able to help someone else in their need for genitic advice! There is a breeder in San Diego, but I think she is overwhelmed with too many birds. I tried for weeks to purchase a pair she had for sale and she never got back to me, even after repeated emails. That's all good though, as I have been motivated to go to a bird show and join a bird club. I've met wonderful breeders and I'm really enjoying being with people as crazy as I am! I'm really having fun with all the lutino mutations combined with blues and oranges. Fun and so beautiful. I've ordered several genetics books and read everything I can get my hands on. Your help has been a real highlight. Hopefully this blog and our posts will help others out there breeding these beautiful birds. I'll keep posting pics on the Facebook link and you'll be able to see my progress. Thanks again Mike, I feel like I have a friend in Austrailia. If I ever visit across the pond I'll let you know! If you head to the states, let me know. Thanks again, Nancy
|
|
|
|
Post by avinet on Mar 28, 2014 13:57:18 GMT 10
Hi Nancy, I have visited San Diego several times - my wife is American and her family lived in San Diego so we visited regularly from 1969 up until around 2004 being the final time. The only breeder I know in San Diego is Adrianne Mock who used to be with the San Diego Bird Breeders which has recently disbanded. She is on my very limited Facebook friends list so if you run into her say hi from Mike Owen in Queensland! Also it would be worth joining the ASA, which is based in LA but has members all over the place, including me. I am sure they have Red-rump breeders among their members, and Steve Duncan, a past president, is very knowledgeable about mutations in general. asabirds.org/I enjoyed our discussions, it meant I had to do some research myself so learned some good stuff myself. Keep in touch cheers, Mike |
|
Natural means exactly that - the colour that is it's natural colour in the wild -ie a normal in avicultural terms.