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Post by AussieBirds on Mar 24, 2008 11:48:31 GMT 10
OK as you know I am totally against feeding pellets to birds it is my opinion that pellets are not as good as a good quality seed and fresh fruit and veggies for your birds, however over the last couple of weeks avinet and now nurse01 are advocating the use of pellets as a substitute for fresh seed, now I am always open to people with more knowledge than I have, which I totally believe Mike and nurse have.
So what I am asking you to do is, convince me that I should be feeding my birds pellets as opposed to fresh seed, fruit and veggies along with a good vitamin supplement in their water daily, what are the benefits, other than economical, of switching to a pellet diet? and what brand of pellets do you consider better than most and what type of fresh fruit do you recommend your birds get daily? and do you recommend a complete change to pellets removing seed from the diet completely?
I look forward to all comments on this subject with great anticipation.
John
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Post by vankarhi on Mar 24, 2008 17:02:45 GMT 10
well I am afraid I do not think I can be convinced........sorry. But I have read too much about ekkies developing problems with toe tap or wing flip or feather problems that quite often have been attributed to pellets. Maybe not all brands of pellets.........but I am not prepared to give my birds pellets on a regular basis..........maybe occassionally....maybe. I will stick to fresh fruit and veges with some sprouts, and home cooked "stuff" and occassionally some human treats (not chocolate or alcohol or softdrink or avocado).
I am not disputing what others with more experience than me are saying............this is just my own honest opinion..........call me "old fashioned" or "from the old school" but that is just how I feel.
Birds did not eat these in the wild. They do eat seed and fruit and veges and grasses etc. depending on what breed of bird you have of course. If you can hand grow stuff that is even better (without poisons). I believe that pellets are a quick/clean and easy way for people to feed their birds and some people would not give their birds anything else believing that the pellets are giving their birds "all they need to survive". I read somewhere that pellets where developed for people who did not want to clean a mess (seed hulls and fruit and vege mess), and to make sure that birds were getting their vitamins. I guess it really comes down to education once again..........a plain seed or pellet diet is not healthy either.
Ok............that said............I will watch and read what others say ............... and lets see if I am convinced enough to change my mind ;D ;D ;D
p.s I also know that others are not advocating a purely seed or pellet diet either, but ekkies are apparently very sensitive to an overload of vitamins or a lack of.
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Post by nurse01 on Mar 24, 2008 17:59:38 GMT 10
Hello! I am appreciate that my opnion is welcome and I am glad that you are willing to potentially change your ideas and opinions on nutrition for your bird.
My ideas on nutrition strictly come from a veterinary health point of view (not from years and years of experiance). I have worked with 1 of the top avian veterinarians in the US (Dr. Richard Hilmer) and know Adrian and work with several vets that are interested in avian health and nutrition and they all are advocates for a pelleted diet verses an all seed diet.
For decades the standard diet for birds has been a mixture of seeds and nuts but over the past several years there has been much research put into avian nutrition and birds nutritional requirements. This new information coupled with better documentation of avian health has found that all seed diets are very harmful.
Supplements like mineral blocks, cuttle bones, fortified seeds and vitamins in the water rely on the bird's willingness to choose these things to eat and in the proper quantities.
Birds eat to fulfil an energy requirement and will typically choose the highest energy (typically the fattiest i.e sunflower seeds) thing to eat. Rest assured if you have pellets and seeds together in a cage, the birds will choose the seed ANYDAY over the pellets (that is natural).
SO....having said all that, a pelleted diet is balanced. It provides your bird with a safe level and accuarate level of nutrients, minerals, proteins, fat and vitamins. However it is still important to feed your bird fresh fruit and veggies EVERY DAY (and just a note, birds are just as messy with pellets as they are with seed!). A budgie should still have 1/4 a cup of fruit and veggies each day.
For those of you concerned about the pelleting process- you can speak to any of the food companies (Vetafarm, Roudybush) and they will be more than happy to explain it to you.
Try and select a pellet brand that contains no added sugars, sweeteners or food colouring (as that can disguise the colour of your birds droppings). Roudybush is my favourite and what Adrian Gallagher promotes.
Just one more little note- in the wild birds actually eat green seed straight from a plant, not dried seed void of all vitamins and minerals. They also eat grass, bark, insects and other proteins.
Like I mentioned earlier I recently purchased 2 Alexes who had been on seed and fruit and veg for 5 years.
I did a body function blood test (which looks at liver function, cholesterol, calcium levels, bile acids, white blood cells and red blood cells, glucose amongst other things) and both birds showed an extreme elevation in their liver enzymes (fatty liver disease from eating a diet high in fat i.e. all seed diet).
In conclusion, a pelleted diet is a guaranteed way to ensure your bird is getting the exact correct amounts of all the right thigns (vitamins, proteins, fats etc). But it is still important to feed fresh fruit and veggies- therefore any extra supplementation is not needed.
Thank you for giving me the opporunity to share this with you (sorry it was so long!)
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Post by just4birds on Mar 24, 2008 18:03:43 GMT 10
i'm not really gonna read the posts ... but i will say ... the pellet debate can be debated until the cows come home ... my personal view ... is if the bird eats it ... then feed it to them  ... its also been proven that an all pellet diet is not better then an all seed diet in the long run .... Just my 2 cents worth |
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Post by vankarhi on Mar 24, 2008 19:24:06 GMT 10
I just want to say this is definetly not intended to offend anyone........this is great that we are having a discussion as this is how we learn things ;D ;D ;D and learning about our feathered family is what this "place" is all about ;D and everyone's opinions are more than welcome ;D
Nurse you did say your alex's were on an "all seed diet" ......... and yes I realise that was before you bought them home. But the key thing is they were on "an all seed diet". Their health might not have been so bad had they had much more varied diet with fresh food/sprouts etc etc.......... and lucky they found their way to your home ;D now they will have a much better diet and improved health and longevity. ;D
My alex's do have seed available to them but they absolutely devour their fruit/veges/ cooked food/sprouts and anything else I might put in their aviary. I also do have the luxury of throwing out old seed into my gardens (quite a lot of the seeds end up in the gravel pathways too) and I pick them and give them to my birds too.
Basically what we all are saying is a good well balanced diet consisting of a lot of fresh food and cooked food ...... and by cooked food I am talking something like what I just cooked for my birds this arvy......cooked brown rice mixed with cooked soup mix with added lentils. To that I add their fruit and veges and sprouts, (whether that be sprouted seeds or mung beans or chick peas or whatever I have sprouted) boiled eggs in the shell, or cooked frozen veges....... whatever I have in the house.
I hope from all this discussing of diet and food that people learn that it is IMPORTANT to the health and well being of our birds (and our pets in general) to have a good well balanced diet.
I will admit that many years ago I thought that seed with a "bit" of fresh veges was a good diet for birds..........but over the past few years I have come realise this is not healthy for them. I now feed my birds so much more differently.
So if this discussion brings more awareness to what people are feeding their pets.....then that is excellent ;D Whether they feed pellets with a good balance and variety of fresh food (I included cooked food in that too) or whether it is a good balance of fresh seed and fresh food ....... The thing also with birds going for the sunflower seeds (which is what I am led to believe causes a lot of weight problems) ...... don't add too many. I think a lot of people used to add them to their birds seed or feed exclusively sunflower seeds thinking they were doing the best for their birds.
Ok I have said more than enough now. Please do not take offence anyone at what I am saying....... this is not directed at anyone ;D Like I said before this discussion is a good thing as it will bring attention to the dietry needs of our feathered friends. ;D
We haven't had a good discussion here for some time........this is great now ;D ;D
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Post by avinet on Mar 24, 2008 22:02:19 GMT 10
i'm not really gonna read the posts ... but i will say ... the pellet debate can be debated until the cows come home ... my personal view ... is if the bird eats it ... then feed it to them ... its also been proven that an all pellet diet is not better then an all seed diet in the long run .... Just my 2 cents worth The real experts of course arte the avian vets - they are the ones who see the results of poor diet in the sick birds bought into their surgeries. And all avian vet sthat I have talked to recommend giving pellets rather than seed. Lisa. can you tell us the source of your statement that an all pellet diet is not better than an all seed diet in the long run. I have never seen any study that claims that. I will post more on this but it is 10.00pm, with cages still to clean up tonight, and I can hear that bed calling cheers, Mike |
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Post by just4birds on Mar 25, 2008 10:23:58 GMT 10
Hmmm i find the avian vets push it ... cause they probably get money back for the products they say ... thats my personal view of course I have a large amount of birds ... some on seed diets ... some on cooked only diets ... and everyone gets pellets here and there I'll have to get the info from my friend about the all seed vs all pellet diet as she was the one that told me ... After seen what my dr mac pellets did while the bag wasnt sealed up enough ... has kinda turned me off pellets ... Also my friend who has a pet eckie .... has noticed behavour changes in her bird depending on the pellet ... We mostly use paswell parrot pellets over any others ... |
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Post by silvercloud on Mar 25, 2008 10:53:58 GMT 10
My understanding is that eckies dietary requirements are quite different to most other parrot species and that pellets seem to have a different effect on them compared to other parrots. Most ecky owners I know give their birds no more than a couple of tablespoons of seed or pellets at the most as 95% of their diet is fruit, vegies and cooked food.
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Post by just4birds on Mar 25, 2008 12:44:14 GMT 10
Yeahh all the eckie owns i know and myself have our eckies on a NO seed diet at all .... and myself i only give pellets when i can be bothered .... to just ad a bit of crunch to there cooked meal ..
My eckies get a cooked meal twice a day .... and fresh organic fruit and vegetables
Pellets can also have different effects on African Greys as well .... and who knows what other kind so parrots ...
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Post by AussieBirds on Mar 25, 2008 13:23:53 GMT 10
I am reading the answers to my original post with great interest, however I am yet to see anything that will convince me to change my birds diet to one that includes pellets.
It is important to recognize here that I am not being just argumentative or hard to get on with, but I do have a genuine interest in this subject and like Tracey I do not wish to offend any one with my comments.
I cannot believe that each pellet contains the exact same amount of nutrients, minerals, proteins, fat and vitamins as the pellet before it. Pellets are formed with heat and that heat must effect the ingredients in each pellet, I also believe that pellets are formed in a metal die under pressure and coming from an engineering background i can assure you after a period of time the die will wear and MAY contaminate the pellet.
I also believe, rightly or wrongly, vets promote certain brands of pellets for monetary gain, however I am still willing to read and take in all the information posted in this string and my mind is still open on the subject.
I will say this in closing this post, the breeders I know personally all feed their birds seed, fresh fruit and veggies with a vitamin supplement they also provide the birds with cuttle fish and in some cases mineral blocks.
Just a bit extra to this one, what veggies do you feed your birds along with your seed or pellets?
John
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Post by vankarhi on Mar 25, 2008 16:44:04 GMT 10
I also have a friend who is a vet nurse and she has told me that some vets do push certain products............ For me what I have read on Land of Vos with people who own mostly ekkies and talk 99% ekkies........... most of the eclectus do end up with some sort of problem when on pellets. Just to change the tune a bit........I am also into dogs (not breeding just training) and I know of a man who is quite welll know in these parts for police dog training and other sorts of dog training. He totally believes that dogs should be on an all natural diet of raw meat........no preseratives, colouring, or what is that word I am looking for.......manufactured foods at all. He also believes that dogs should not be immunised ........... and his dogs are not and they are very very healthy. He also believes that the processed food (that was the word I was looking for ;D ) is the cause for dogs longevity not being what it used to be. He has heaps of articles (not written by him necessarily but by friends of his who are some sort of scientist, vets, and others in the pet/animal industry). He believes in totally natural foods and sometimes even healing. He has found that when "problem" dogs are put on to this type of diet that a lot of neuotic problems and behavioural problems can be stemed or "fixed" with a bit of training as well. I had a staffy who was allergic "supposedly" to dry dog food and developed terrible skin problems. Now this is probably really pushing the boundaries here too.........but there are even people who believe we should not immunise our children for the same reasons. I do believe we take too many unnatural products into our bodies (says she who has just eaten a chocolate and iceblock ;D ).......I also believe it is very hard to live a totally natural lifestyle anymore, as we will always be injesting something at sometime of our lives that is not terribly good for us, but the most we can hope for is to try our best to look after ourselves and our family (feathered furred or not) and try to give them the best possible chance of long and healthy life. Some people believe our bodies have natural immunities if we stop taking so many processed foods and unnecessary medications and they believe this about their animals too. Not saying that you stop taking your pets/kids to the vets/docs, but we really do need to think about what we put into our bodies and our pets and childrens bodies. Basically I don't have a problem if someone chooses to have their birds on a pellet and fresh food diet or a seed and fresh food diet............ they main thing is that it is a "balanced' diet mixed with plenty of fresh food also............it basically really comes down to what we as the "consumer" or "carer" feel comfortable with and what sits well with us ;D Well gee I have totally rambled on here..........this could end up quite a debate too, there are so many variables to talk about here. ;D ;D ;D I will try to be quiet from now on  ;D ;D |
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Post by vankarhi on Mar 25, 2008 16:57:45 GMT 10
oh sorry but it is me again sorry ;D John to answer your question on what veges and fruits etc we feed our birds......... mine get basically whatever I can get my hands on that is in season. I try to buy rockmelons, watermelons occassionally, passionfruit I grow or in laws give to me, I grow chillies and paw paws, they get carrots, celery occassionally, brocoli, beans, peas, snow peas, silver beat, capsicum, lychees, strawberries, corn etc etc. I also buy frozen veges like beans, peas, corn and corn on the cobb, brocoli for them if I don't have fresh stuff until I go shopping. Oh they also love sweet potato too. They get a lot of apple a little banana (I love my banana's and don't like to share it much ;D ) occassionally a slice of orange. They love mashed potato and mashed sweet potato which I mix in with their soft food. I sprout seeds now as well as mung beans and chick peas and alfalfa sometimes too. I cook a mix of brown rice, soup mix (it has barley, split peas, lentils etc etc in it) and add more lentils to it and I add their fruit and veges to this too sometimes. Oh I quite often have a frozen fruit mix too which I buy for myself to add to my natural yogurt........sometimes I will share this with the ekkies and I give all the birds natural yogurt from time to time to. They also get a hard boiled egg still with the shell on it and they love the occassional aloe vera leaf too. phew........I will try really hard not to talk anymore I promise ;D ;D |
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Post by just4birds on Mar 25, 2008 17:13:58 GMT 10
After having my blah on the topic ... i decide to do some googling .... and come across this site ... with this bit of info on it plus more ... **** A number of reports from aviaries have suggested that pelleted diets do not improve the health of birds, but can actually create problems. Some breeders have reported an increased incidence of tumors, kidney problems and even kidney failure, and a variety of other health issues affecting their flocks. These reports have come from breeders of such birds as budgerigars, lovebirds, and eclectus parrots, species that come from very different environments and most likely have different dietary needs based on their geographical heritage. While I will admit reports from breeders are not scientific studies, they do warrant further investigation. Long-term studies of the effects of a largely pelleted diet on specific species have not been done. Therefore, overreliance on pellets as the sole source of nutrition seems premature. For example, what are the effects of feeding a pellet that contains ethoxyquin to an amazon parrot for 40-plus years? ***** The url with the info on it is www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa082200.htmMy sun conures ... and eckies get what we all call a "vegie mush" which is alots of different organic veggies .... which are steamed ... and then mixed with a soup mix,brown rice,veggie pasta and chick peas ... which ya can make in bulk and freeze in meal size ... I then just defrost it each day ... microwave it for 30 secs or so to make it warm .. |
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Post by avinet on Mar 25, 2008 22:40:54 GMT 10
The argument often used against pellets is that pellets don't occur in the wild and so isn't a natural diet. Well of course nothing we feed our birds is a natural diet. Let us consider the cockatiel for instance, since it is proably the best studied of all the parrots regarding nutritional requirements. A wild cockatiel evolved to eat a natural diet of Australian native plants, especially green seed, buds, flowers, fruit and leaves. It did not evolve to eat millet, panicum, sunflower or canary seed. All these are European introductions, and may (in fact do) have quite different compositions to the native seeds and foods they evolved to eat. And they certainly didn't evolve to naturally eat corn, carrot apples, silver beet or celery.
So as soon as we keep these birds in captivity we are not giving them their natural foods, we are immediately making compromises in their diet. Cockatiels are a good species to look at since their dietary needs are better known through scientific experimentation than any other species of parrot. There were extensive studies in the 1980's on a flock of cockatiels maintained at the University of California Davis, and Tom Roudybush did his Ph.D. on their nutrition at that time.
That flock continues to be maintained and many comparative studies have looked at their response to pellets (Roudybush of course) and other diets. Somewhere I have a bunch of papers published by students at the university but for the life of me can't locate them at present. These studies have shown significant health benefits of a pellet diet over a seed diet in a scientifically controlled situation.
The requirements of cockatiels for the whole range of amino acids, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals etc is pretty well known and is incorporated into at least Roudybush pellets, and since many companies have drawn on Tom Roudybush's work, most other pellets are similar. The problem if you try to give a cockatiel a balanced diet, according to what it evolved to eat in the wild, is getting that balance. To arrive at a diet you need to know exactly what is in each food you feed, whether it is seed, fruit or vegies, you need to make some pretty complex calculations to know what proportions if each food is needed to make a balanced diet, and you need to be sure that the bird is then going to eat everything you give it in the necessary proportions. If you don't do this then you are just guessing and hoping for the best.
The argument is also used that each species is different and how can one pellet satisfy every species. Of course it can't, and if we look at Roudybush pellets for instance we have a pellet optimised for cockatiels. However in broad terms it seems that most Australian parrots have similar requirements, although some such as Eclectus (I'll talk about them separately), Glossies and Fig parrots have specialised requirements, and lorikeets are off on their own, but the majority of grassland and woodland parrots in Australia have similar needs. So the pellet developed for cockatiels is suitable for budgies, rosellas, grass parrots and neophemas, Polytelis, the white group of cockatoos, and kings.
When we move into South American and African birds the dietary requirements are probably different in detail - principally the protein/fat/carbohydrate needs - however the vitamin and mineral requirements are generally similar to cockatiels. There has been an extensive study of an Amazon species at UC Davis (can't remember which species offhand) and although it's wild diet is quite different from cockatiels, it turned out that it's fundamental requirements were much the same. So the concerns about a one pellet fits all may not be as great as may appear at first glance. Both Kaytee and Hagen have also done pretty extensive work on a variety of species, although they treat it as commercial in confidence unfortunately and it is not published, it has shown that the broad requirements are surprisingly similar. I've talked to both Tom Roudybush and Mark Hagen about this at conferences, and also a vet working for Kaytee.
Thats enough for one post - I have several other points to raise, but I will make them separate posts to make it more readable, and spread it out over several nights since I am pretty busy at the moment with non-bird things.
cheers,
Mike
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Post by avinet on Mar 25, 2008 22:46:44 GMT 10
Hmmm i find the avian vets push it ... cause they probably get money back for the products they say ... thats my personal view of course Most avian vets would be insulted by that comment - although I can think of three in Australia perhaps guilty of pushing their own products more than perhaps is desirable. Certainly the likes of Adrian Gallagher push pellets because of the very obvious health benefits of them for birds that they see everyday. cheers, Mike |
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Post by avinet on Mar 25, 2008 23:14:01 GMT 10
My sun conures ... and eckies get what we all call a "vegie mush" which is alots of different organic veggies .... which are steamed ... and then mixed with a soup mix,brown rice,veggie pasta and chick peas ... which ya can make in bulk and freeze in meal size ... I then just defrost it each day ... microwave it for 30 secs or so to make it warm .. Mash diets such as this are quite popular in the USA and seem to give good results. There are quite a few different mash recipes on the Net, some with an incredibly complex recipe list. Only problem for most bird owners is they can be time consuming to make. They will certainly be better than a seed diet and are the way to go for those philosophically opposed to pellets. cheers, Mike |
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Post by avinet on Mar 25, 2008 23:16:36 GMT 10
Mash diets such as this are quite popular in the USA and seem to give good results. There are quite a few different mash recipes on the Net, some with an incredibly complex recipe list. I meant to give this link to an amazing recipe for a mash www.naturalbird.com/mcwatters/mash.htmcheers, Mike |
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Post by nurse01 on Mar 26, 2008 7:01:49 GMT 10
I am not going to write too much more. I am astounded by some of the viewpoints. One point that seem to be repeating itself is that people seem to want to believe other people over vets. I am floored by this. Can I just ask, why wouldn't you listen to a vet?  UNbeLIEVable. I am sorry but if I had questions and a human doctor told me somthing, I wouldn't go to my neighbor and do what they told me to do instead. Vets go to school for 5 years for a reason. NOT to mention avian specialists also spend a couple years out before they can do their membership in avian medicin (which I might add is HARD YARDS) then their is fellowship on top of that. Vets go to continuing education. Adrian speaks at conferences all over Australia (im going to an upcoming nurses conference and going to a talk given by him) So, what i want to know- why wouldn't you listen to a vet about something as important as nutrition? I guarantee you, we do NOT make money on food!! |
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Post by abby-oldaccount on Mar 26, 2008 7:06:41 GMT 10
Ok I've done a browse through this thread. My avian vet (before he upped an retired  ) and I had a chat about what my guys were getting. I spoke to him also about the whole pellet thing. His view, with what my lot were getting in their diet from fresh/cooked means pellets were completely unnecessary. Pellets are great if people are not giving a varied diet with nutrients in the way of other grains, beans, peas, fruit and veg. I think we realise that an ALL seed dirt is not fulfilling the nutritional requirements of the birds. My lot do get pellets but it's a sprinkle in their fresh mix and I'm not consistent with it. Some will forage through and eat them first, others don't want to know about them. The thing I don't like about an ALL pellet diet is while nutritionally it might be sound I feel the birds miss out on the natural instinct to forage which I believe is good for their mental health. Now just to possibly be offensive...I actually compare pellets to McDonalds healthy choice meals. Nutritionally sound and great for people on the go, but ultimately I still feel that fresh diet is best the same as a healthy home cooked meal for us. |
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Post by abby-oldaccount on Mar 26, 2008 7:23:25 GMT 10
Ok I think I was formulating my response when you posted Nurse01. Vets, even avian vets, are not nutritionists. They have a huge amount on their plates as you would know working in the area and nutrition is just one facet of their work. There are people out there who are that have done a huge amount of research into the area of avian nutrition. They often assist companies in pellet development too. BTW I have the greatest deal of respect for Dr Gallagher and I know he has an excellent reputation. Not being a Queenslander I can only go by what I've heard from people who are his clients but would have him as my avian specialist in a heartbeat. I do like the species specific type pellets as lets be honest, different species do have slightly different nutritional requirements. These requirements can not be totally met with a general pellet diet.
My next thing is that pellets haven't really been available for that long. I believe we still need to see the long term gains health wise from them. There are a number of Australian cockatoos that are in their 80s and older who have never seen a pellet in their lives but seem to have made it to these remarkable ages.
I'm not dishing pellets completely, I think there is a place for them, however, I still believe a fresh diet is the ultimate both nutritionally and psychologically for our birds.
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... its also been proven that an all pellet diet is not better then an all seed diet in the long run ....
;D ;D
) and I had a chat about what my guys were getting. I spoke to him also about the whole pellet thing. His view, with what my lot were getting in their diet from fresh/cooked means pellets were completely unnecessary. Pellets are great if people are not giving a varied diet with nutrients in the way of other grains, beans, peas, fruit and veg. I think we realise that an ALL seed dirt is not fulfilling the nutritional requirements of the birds. My lot do get pellets but it's a sprinkle in their fresh mix and I'm not consistent with it. Some will forage through and eat them first, others don't want to know about them. The thing I don't like about an ALL pellet diet is while nutritionally it might be sound I feel the birds miss out on the natural instinct to forage which I believe is good for their mental health.