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Post by vankarhi on Nov 2, 2009 20:26:49 GMT 10
people who know little about birds read this and think ....... that is all they need to feed the birds. No fresh stuff or anything else
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Post by conureowner1 on Nov 2, 2009 22:37:44 GMT 10
i agree to well Tracey my birds eat more fresh fruit and veggies then they do seed. I hate it also when they say pellets are healthier then seed. Seed and pellets aren't as healthy as fresh fruit and veggies,also pellets are man made,were seed is just planted and left to grow. God knows what actually goes into the pellets. I don't think they would list everything. When i bred rats i use to buy them pellets and low and behold i found metal in some of the pellets,plastic in other pellets. So i feed my rats quailty rodent food with plenty of veggies and some fruit.
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Post by Robyn on Nov 3, 2009 12:45:37 GMT 10
Well i also agree with Tracey & wild horses wouldn't make me feed my birds pellets as a complete diet. I don't feel there has been enough research done on the long term effects pellets as a complete diet has on a bird. But having said that i don't think a few pellets in moderation would hurt hence why i do have them on hand here.
I am not sure what Shaun feeds his eckies, i do know Tracey feeds her's the same as i do so my way of thinking is we must be doing something right for our birds to keep breeding the way they do. In other words they are getting a well balanced diet & are happy & healthy.
But each to their own. We do have a choice of what we feed our birds & my motto is if its working for me why change. Anyway that's what i think.
;DRobyn.
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Post by sypher on Nov 3, 2009 16:13:21 GMT 10
Well i also agree with Tracey & wild horses wouldn't make me feed my birds pellets as a complete diet. I don't feel there has been enough research done on the long term effects pellets as a complete diet has on a bird. But having said that i don't think a few pellets in moderation would hurt hence why i do have them on hand here. I am not sure what Shaun feeds his eckies, i do know Tracey feeds her's the same as i do so my way of thinking is we must be doing something right for our birds to keep breeding the way they do. In other words they are getting a well balanced diet & are happy & healthy. But each to their own. We do have a choice of what we feed our birds & my motto is if its working for me why change. Anyway that's what i think. ;DRobyn. I feed my guys basicaly what you do Robyn. Every morning they get soaked seed mixed with fruit and veges (good variety and always different). When they have young they also get an arrowroot biscuit and egg and biscuit is always available while feeding young. Small parrot mix with a little extra sunflower is always available. In the afternoons. they are given fruit and vege, mainly corn, orange and apple, in large pieces. All of my birds get this daily with the exception of afternoon fruit for all but the eckies. I go through amost a cut up bucket of fruit ans soaked seed a day. Shaun |
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Post by Robyn on Nov 3, 2009 16:26:51 GMT 10
I know what i coming back as when i fall off my perch a Parrot at Shaun's place.  I was sure you did pretty much what i did. Robyn. |
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Post by vankarhi on Nov 3, 2009 19:50:00 GMT 10
lol Robyn I have had people say they want to come back as an animal and live with me lol
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Post by avinet on Nov 4, 2009 0:05:45 GMT 10
I don't feel there has been enough research done on the long term effects pellets as a complete diet has on a bird. The first serious research on the dietary needs of parrots that I am aware of started around 1980, nearlt 30 years ago at the University of California, Davis. Tom Roudybush started a Ph.D. at that time studying the nutritional needs of cockatiels and studies on cockatiels from the original flock, plus studies on other species, especially Amazons, has continued at Davis ever since. As part of that research Tom Roudybush developed the basic formulation of what was to become Roudybush Pellets, and cockatiels in that flock and their descendants have been getting pellets for at least 25 years. So the long term effects of feeding pellets to cockatiels is well known and is proven scientifically to be entirely beneficial with no long term deleterious effects. Similar studies have been done at Hagen's research labs since 1985, and they have about 350 pairs spread amongst around 50 species, and I know that Kaytee also has an extensive research flock. There is now plenty of research on the dietary needs of quite a few parrot species. I've met both Tom Roudybush and Mark Hagen and talked extensively to them about parrot nutrition and the work they are doing. It's impressive! Feeding seed to a parrot is exactly like feeding dry bread to a human. Dry bread and water will keep you alive - for a while - and seed and water will keep a bird alive - for a while - but in the end both the human and bird will get symptoms of malnutrition. Adding fruit and vegetables will help but birds eat selectively, eating some seeds and vegetables and leaving others. And who here has sat down and worked out just what the actual vitamin, mineral, amino acid and carbohydrate intake of each bird is based on what it is actually eating. I suspect no one and we all just throw a lot of stuff together and hope for the best. At least if the bird is getting a good quality pellet, which is backed by proper research, as the basis of their diet you can be confident that it is getting the essential ingredients for a healthy diet and the fruit and vegetables are the icing on the cake. Seed and veggies don't even give you the egg in the cake never mind the icing on top. A common argument used against pellets is that all species are different and a pellet can't possibly cater for all species of parrots. But those that use that argument will happily give their various species of parrot the same small parrot seed mix, whether it be Conure, Quaker, Cockatiel, Rosella or King Parrot. Exactly the same argument applies. Especially since none of the seeds used in our seed mixes are native to where the parrots evolved and hence are not a natural food for them. If a pellet cannot be suitable for both South American and Australian species then a seed mix also cannot be suitable for both South American and Australian species. And before anyone starts going on about Eclectus I know they are different, very different, to most other parrot species in their dietary requirements, and really should not be discussed in any general parrot nutritional discussion. What suits them is irelevent to 95% of the other species we keep in aviculture. Although I will say that in the wild Eclectus don't appear to eat any dry seed. There are many areas of nutrition that could be quoted when discussing the bad aspects of seed based diets, but a simple one is the Calcium to Phosphorus ration and it's importance in avian nutrition. Basically it needs to be around 2:1 for Ca:P but in virtually any seed and veggie combination you care to feed is going to be no where near that value, and excess Phosphorus leads to poor Calcium absorption, which in return can result in all sort of problems including poor survival rate in the nest of nestlings. I have written about this elsewhere on the Forum but it is too late tonight to find it - I'll follow up with more tomorrow night. cheers, Mike |
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Post by Robyn on Nov 4, 2009 7:28:03 GMT 10
Thanks Mike i can appreciate all that, but its still processed food. I can't imagine my birds happily living on pellets alone they would die. Especially the Eclectus, If i give them a handful it all ends up on the bottom of the water dish or not eaten at all. They love dunking it & by the end of the day there is a thick sludge in their water dish. The only pair of birds that will eat it all are the Amazons. Yes i do feed pellets but i just couldn't feed it as a complete diet.
My line of thinking is if we all went back in time and ate a simple healthy diet without any form of processed foods i am sure there wouldn't be so many unhealthy people on the planet. In fact my hubbies Surgeon has told us that the reason so many people have bowel problems is from all the processed foods we eat our digestive system wasn't made to cope with what we eat today. He also told us that by the time we all fall off the perch almost everyone will have bowel cancer whether we know it or not. Scary thoughts.
Even our dogs & cats don't do well on the crap we feed them its all so easy to grab a tin & open it & chuck on a few biscuits. I don't care how good the manufactures say these foods are good for our pets. When i was a kid our dogs got table scraps they lived into old age with out ever needing a Vet. Our last 3 dogs made it to around 10 years old & had to be put to sleep with cancer.
As far as seed goes, most of my birds would eat 1 cup per pair per week. Quakers & cockatiels leave the sunflower & don't eat it at all. Only all the conures eat all their seed & everything else they get. I think because Tracey, Shaun & myself specialize in the Eclectus we tend to all agree that the pellet diet is maybe not good as a complete diet for them.
At the end of the day it boils down to choice. I have been told by old timers to feed your birds with any healthy foods we feed our selves. So far its worked for me. Also 30, 40 years ago breeders were making up their own hand rearing mixes & still swear by them today so are they wrong or is what they are feeding healthy for the growing baby.
Mike i am not against pellets & will still give them as a supplement But in all honesty NO i could not & don't still believe that a pelleted diet is good for Eclectus. Having said that i would never tell anyone never to use pellets, in fact i do tell my customers to keep them on hand. And they can also buy them from me when they run out as i buy them in bulk. At the moment i have Vetafarm American & Hagens.
I think what i am getting at is the fact processed foods are proving to be a big health problem to people & there is proof of it. So surely the same thing applies to animals. Just my logic. I also feel the same way about shoving multi-vitamins into my mouth, do they really do what they claim. I think not.
Robyn
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Post by avinet on Nov 4, 2009 8:12:51 GMT 10
I think because Tracey, Shaun & myself specialize in the Eclectus we tend to all agree that the pellet diet is maybe not good as a complete diet for them. I specifically excluded Eclectus from the discussion - ideally they should only get fruit and vegetables from the tropical rainforests, their diet appears to be that specialised. There are several other points who bring up Robyn, but time is against me this morning, I'll try to get to them during the day if it is quiet in the shop. cheers, Mike |
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Post by Robyn on Nov 4, 2009 9:33:47 GMT 10
Thanks again Mike. Its not just me wondering about what to feed our parrots [All Parrot] I am finding i have to answer questions from people around me regarding topics raised in this discussion. I can only tell them what works for me. Looking forward to hearing more from you Mike. Maybe i have it all wrong?  Forgot to add most of the conures also eat pellets. As everyone knows i had that run on the orange eckie hens, I am still none the wiser as to why that happened, only that maybe the extra supps i was giving them caused it. They now get none & i haven't had one orange chick out of the last 2 clutches. Also i might add they were all hens as well. Cheers Robyn. |
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Post by avinet on Nov 4, 2009 21:18:35 GMT 10
In fact my hubbies Surgeon has told us that the reason so many people have bowel problems is from all the processed foods we eat our digestive system wasn't made to cope with what we eat today. He also told us that by the time we all fall off the perch almost everyone will have bowel cancer whether we know it or not. Scary thoughts. The reason why bowel cancer is a problem these days is because the processed food we eat is lacking in fibre, and most do not eat enough fruit and veggies to provide the necessary fibre. I was as guilty of that as anyone until a scare in 2007 with bowel diverticulitis and pre-cancerous polyps. That has all cleared up now but I make sure I get plenty of fibre in my diet these days. Birds by the nature of their diet get plenty of fibre, and pellets are formulated to include ample fibre. My pet birds, which largely eat pellets have the droppings to prove it cheers, Mike |
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Post by avinet on Nov 4, 2009 21:47:13 GMT 10
One of the easiest and most graphic aspects of bird nutrition which illustrates the problems with a seed based diet is the Calcium and Phosphorus issue. Back in 2008 I posted a long discussion to the group about this subject and am going to essentially paste that essay into this post. Some of the older member of the Forum will recognise it, but the newer ones may not have come across it and it is really important to understand. It is long but it is worth reading through to the end. Calcium is an essential part of any vertebrate animal's diet. It is needed for bones, for eggs in a bird, and is an essential element in the proper function of nerves and muscles. Calcium absorption occurs in the small intestine, in conjunction with vitamin D3, however various factors can affect the way calcium is absorbed. A high protein diet can aid calcium absorption (but can also cause liver/kidney problems so isn't desirable) while a high fat diet can block calcium absorption by combining with calcium. A critical factor in calcium absorption is the calcium to phosphorus ratio (Ca:P) since phosphorus preferentially binds with D3 and makes the vitamin unavailable to assist calcium absorption. Ideally the food intake of the bird should have twice as much calcium as phosphorus, or a 2:1 Ca:P ratio. While the ideal ratio is 2:1, a range of 1:1 to 2.5:1 seems to not cause too many problems. Unfortunately seed has far more phosphorus than calcium and a typical seed mix for small parrots may have a ratio of 0.2:1 or worse. That is, there is 10 times less calcium compared to phosphorus than is desirable. While a bird can survive on an all seed diet with such a low Ca:P ratio, it will not be at maximum health and will be susceptible to various health and stress problems. A low calcium, and high phosphorus diet can result in a syndrome called Nutritional Hyperparathyroidism, where to maintain a suitable calcium level in the blood, calcium is taken from the bones and tissues, which can result in weakness, egg-binding, dead in the shell babies, splayed legs in babies, and bone fractures. A shortage of calcium can also result in loss of babies in the nest - many of the unexplained baby losses may be due to calcium problems in the embryo and early chick development. Adding vegetables to the seed diet doesn't help much. Remembering that to counteract the low calcium in seed we need to look at vegetables high in calcium and low in phosphorus, and Ca:P ratios for some common vegetables are as follows. Broccoli 0.8:1, carrots 0.6:1, celery 1.4:1, Silver Beet 1:1, Corn 0.03:1 (that is 1 part calcium to 33 parts phosphorus), Endive 2:1, green beans 1:1, Kale 2.5:1, parsley 3:1, peas 0.25:1, and Sweet potato 0.8:1. So celery, endive, kale and parsley are good; broccoli, carrot peas and sweet potato don't help and corn is a disaster! Fruit doesn't help much either since most fruit is low in calcium, and has at best a 1:1 ratio. An exception is papaya which has lots of calcium and a ratio of 4:1 for Ca:P. To ensure that a bird gets enough calcium that can be utilised involves a difficult calculation. Given the relatively low absolute amounts of calcium in vegetables the bird would probably need at least 90% of it's diet to be the right vegetables (those with more calcium than phosphorus - corn is right out of the picture) to approach the proper Ca:P ratio. It is of course possible to supplement with additives - usually in the water, but that is a very hit or miss approach. Do you know just how much water a day your birds drink - is it 1 ml, 5 ml, 10 ml? And if you do know how much water it drinks, do you know how much calcium and phosphorus in absolute amounts is in the foods it eats? If you don't you are relying on intuition and luck. And remember that too much calcium can cause as many problems as too little calcium. Cuttlebone and shell grit can help, but most of it goes straight through unabsorbed, since inorganic calcium is very poorly absorbed by the gut compared to calcium in organic compounds. In contrast by feeding a diet based around pellets, you know that the Ca:P ratio is going to be correct, that there is sufficient Ca in the diet, and by feeding mainly those vegetables that have a good Ca:P ratio you are not going to upset that balance. That means for instance that I limit the amount of corn I give the birds, I give a lot of endive and grow a lot of chinese greens which also have good ratios. They also get some parsley, a bit of carrot for vitamin A, and broccoli when I can afford it  As you know I have two African Greys - given their known calcium problems there is no way I would trust their diet to the hit and miss approach of feeding seed, and they get a pellet diet with suitable fruit and veggies. All my pet birds do, I want them to be around me as long as possible and in as good a health as possible. They do get a bit of seed - after cage clean each night they have a pinch of seed as a treat - but their diet is built around pellets, and a variety of pellets. Calcium and Phosphorus are just one of many aspects of avian nutrition that need to be taken into account when arriving at a good diet - there are amino acids for instance, they need a book not an essay to go into properly. A failure to have sufficient of any of the primary amino acids in the diet can lead to problems, which get exacerbated at breeding time. Many unexplained deaths, if not most, of babies in the nest are nutritionally caused. That's all for tonight, cheers, Mike |
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Post by vankarhi on Nov 5, 2009 20:38:33 GMT 10
Ok just a question out of curiosity........if we were to give them sprouted seeds I have read this is much better than dry seeds? Would that make a difference??? I also give mine red papaya almost every day, bok choy almost every day silver beet sometimes (at the moment we are growing it so they are getting some when I have run out of bok choy). Mine also get boiled eggs with the shell on ...... sometimes but probably a little more regular at the moment (not daily probably twice a week??) Mine also get plenty of other fresh foods and at the moment mung beans are a regular on the menu as I was watching a show a while ago and it said the sprouted mung beans were very very high on the list of foods to help humans with depression.....so we are all getting mung beans now....lucky I love them and have had them for many many years ....... just not as often as now. lol
I am only asking this Mike out of curiosty........not trying to cause problems or prove my birds eat well. It has been something I wondered actually as I had read that sprouted seed was much better than dry ones anyway.
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Post by vankarhi on Nov 5, 2009 20:39:17 GMT 10
Oh and I also noted that term "all seed diet" again
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Post by madaussie on Nov 5, 2009 21:15:17 GMT 10
Yes i would like to know about sprouts as mine get it everyday.
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Post by avinet on Nov 5, 2009 23:24:53 GMT 10
Sprouted seed is thought to be good, with a decrease in fat and changes in the proteins and carbohydrates that are beneficial. Some of the vitamins that are missing in dry seed also become available. However the calcium/phosphorus issue is unchanged - the calcium and phosphorus levels will remain unchanged.
I use sprouted seed daily in the breeding season, and it is the first solid food I give to babies when they start weaning. We also use it extensively in the shop with all birds getting it daily as well.
Mung beans are part of my sprouting mix - about 5 to 10%, but their Ca:P ratio is poor at about 1:3 so they don't help the calcium problem.
However Tracey, your mix of veggies and fruit are pretty good overall for the Ca:P levels, could certainly be a lot worse.
cheers,
Mike
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Post by madaussie on Nov 6, 2009 6:48:26 GMT 10
Thanks mike as always well answered and yet again more learned .
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Post by Robyn on Nov 9, 2009 6:55:17 GMT 10
Thanks for all that info Mike. As i read through all this thread again it does seem that we are feeding our birds a pretty good diet. They may not get what they would in the wild but this is as good as it gets.
One question though Mike. I have always given my birds calcium & charcoal bells, even though they have pellets available if they want them, they will still hoe into the bells at egg laying & again when feeding the young. I notice this with all my breeding birds. Would it be fair to say that a parrot would know what its body needs at certain times & maybe eat only what it needs. I know especially with my breeders that they seem to put themselves on a diet as at certain times of the year they won't touch some foods & at other times they can't get enough. They also only seem to eat the pellets when they have young in the nest. But will always prefer their fruit & veg mix over any thing else.
Thanks
Robyn.
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Post by avinet on Nov 9, 2009 10:28:13 GMT 10
One question though Mike. I have always given my birds calcium & charcoal bells, even though they have pellets available if they want them, they will still hoe into the bells at egg laying & again when feeding the young. I notice this with all my breeding birds. Would it be fair to say that a parrot would know what its body needs at certain times & maybe eat only what it needs. I'm not a big fan of calcium bells - they are pretty hard for many birds and because of that they don't get much calcium into their system quickly enough in the egg laying period. I much prefer cuttlebone - soft and easy for the bird to swallow plenty, and that is important because calcium from bells, cuttlebone or grit isn't absorbed very efficiently so cuttlebone makes up for that to some extent with volume. Birds certainly know what they need and I usually know a hen is getting ready to breed by the increase in her cuttlebone consumption. I also find that when they are breeding, and particularly when they have babies, they are much more adventurous about their food. cheers, Mike |
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Post by vankarhi on Nov 9, 2009 17:54:16 GMT 10
lol ...... adventureous with their food or just "needing" to eat to more so they eat everything. lol
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