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Post by avinet on Sept 11, 2010 21:47:28 GMT 10
I have to complain about the arbitrary locking of the thread entitled "some exciting news". Just because an experienced bird keeper mentions that they are taking a baby that is not yet weaned does not to me seem to be a reason to lock the thread. I for one wanted to add to Robyn's reply, but am unable - and in part wanted to say that I look forward to Robyn's account of her raising a baby Black Cockatoo.
Selling unweaned babies to inexperienced prospective owners is not good, however it is an accepted practise amongst experienced bird keepers. I myself have purchased hundreds of babies over the last 20 years to raise for my shop, and I have written about them to this forum myself over the years - the Blue & Gold Macaws last year for instance, and like Robyn, have been doing it for near 20 years.
I consider that there is a degree of "political correctness" at play here which was uncalled for, and that thread should be unlocked..
cheers,
Mike
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Post by conureowner1 on Sept 11, 2010 22:00:13 GMT 10
Thanks Mike i too was shocked too see my thread locked i was registered with this site about 4 or 5 years ago with the username conureowner which i delected the account of. I love too see and read about peoples experiences with hand rearing but wouldn't reccomended hand rearing to anyone. I will say if they wanted to learn how to hand rear contact a breeder and ask them to teach you how to hand rear. I wouldn't just say to anyone that hand rearing is easy cause its not there are alot of things that can go wrong. I've hand reared many parrots so i would like to think i know what i am doing.
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Post by asharee on Sept 11, 2010 22:43:45 GMT 10
ben, dont be a party pooper.
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Post by zooyouthben on Sept 11, 2010 23:11:24 GMT 10
It in interest of ethical bird keeping threads as such will not be allowed, end of story.
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Post by Robyn on Sept 11, 2010 23:38:44 GMT 10
Ben i am sorry but i just don't understand. I would like you to explain to me what is the difference between what I do & what conureowner is doing. I would have thought it was illegal for a breeder to knowingly sell a bird unweaned to persons inexperienced with hand rearing. This forum states it does not support the selling of unweaned birds. I think i am confused.  |
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Post by asharee on Sept 12, 2010 0:21:05 GMT 10
It has come to notice a few people asking for unweaned baby birds. This practice is actually illegal in some states and frowned upon by many other people. Please take the time to read the next paragraph.
"In line with many State Laws and Animal ethics AussieBirds Friendly Forum will not allow the advertisment of unweaned birds.
All advertisements regarding such birds will be promptly removed.
Nor will any discussions on the sale/after sales service be allowed, as this promotes the idea."
it is not an advertisement. its not a sale, its not a disscussion on an aftersale, she is saying, yes she did purchase an unweaned bird knowingly to handraise herself and she believes that it bonds better. as is robyn. it wasn't fair to delete her thread.
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Post by Robyn on Sept 12, 2010 9:22:21 GMT 10
It in interest of ethical bird keeping threads as such will not be allowed, end of story. Ben i am sure there is a better approach to this than embarrassing a long time member, wouldn't it have been better to PM the OP & explain. From my point of view its OK for me to do this because i breed birds so does the OP. Am i to understand these rules apply to anyone buying unweaned birds or just those that are inexperienced. Please enlighten me. Ben you also hand rear birds as well. Or am i wrong. Surely you can understand the pleasure one gets out of raising a baby bird. |
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Post by Robyn on Sept 12, 2010 9:38:48 GMT 10
Something else is it OK for an experienced rearer to finish off the hand rearing but not mention the bird was purchased.
I think there should be something set in place as to where we draw the line. There is pictures of baby birds being posted all over this forum & many of us pulling the chicks for hand rearing surely that in itself is sending the wrong message to some novice wanting to do the same thing.
Personally i think we are in a catch 22 situation here.
I would also like to see this up for matured discussion & not LOCKED.
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Post by avinet on Sept 12, 2010 10:57:19 GMT 10
It in interest of ethical bird keeping threads as such will not be allowed, end of story. I'm afraid a poorly written one-liner such as this doesn't cut it Ben - you need to explain yourself better. Are you saying that all hand rearing is ethically wrong; that hand rearing of birds you did not breed is wrong, or that it is OK to hand rear babies, whether you bred them or not, as long as you do it behind closed doors and don't talk about it. My belief is that the advertising of unweaned babies should be banned, but talking about raising a baby is OK - and to me it doesn't matter if that baby was bred by the contributor or obtained from another breeder. By your apparent logic Ben, if someone who had purchased an unweaned baby, in all innocence of the possible consequences, then came to this forum asking for advice, you would lock the thread and deny them that advice. Is that ethical? Would you lock a thread about Tracey, Robyn or myself hand raising babies we had obtained from elsewhere? If not, then where do you draw the line? cheers, Mike |
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Post by Laraine on Sept 12, 2010 13:16:11 GMT 10
Whereas this forum definitely does not condone the selling of unweaned birds, I think we still can encourage freedom of speech on the subject.
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Post by vankarhi on Sept 12, 2010 14:54:27 GMT 10
Ok ......... I must have missed this just in a few hours of not being here.
My "sticky" has been altered yesterday!!! I went in to see what exactly was typed when we decided to put something in place to let people know we do not support the selling of unweaned babies and that is not what I had put there.......things have been added.
I am all for not selling unweaned babies myself and I have not sold any unweaned birds....and yes I have been asked.........I will not sell an unweaned bird to someone I don't know and who is inexperienced to finish raising because I would be very upset if something happened to the bird......it is my responsibility. That is just how I feel. I was also of the impression it is actually illegal in Qld and although maybe not illegal in other states.....frowned upon.
I thought we were trying to let others know that the selling of unweaned birds to inexperienced people was not a good idea. No matter what people say though there is always going to be inexperienced people who buy unweaned birds.......we need to be able to give them help or point them in the direction of an expert in their area if possible.........we can't just turn our backs.
I am sorry if some people feel I am being wishing washy or sitting on the fence or even changed my idea (which I don't think I have).....it is very hard to be politically correct and not offend people and still try to get something across.......
Even though we do not "support the selling of unweaned birds" ...... I think we need to be available to help and support people who need help and not just turn our backs.......
And just for the record I have handraised birds on and off since I was in my early twenties........and only started breeding 3 years ago. I am sure many of us are in this position also.
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Post by avinet on Sept 12, 2010 16:13:51 GMT 10
Ok ......... I must have missed this just in a few hours of not being here. My "sticky" has been altered yesterday!!! I went in to see what exactly was typed when we decided to put something in place to let people know we do not support the selling of unweaned babies and that is not what I had put there.......things have been added. I was also of the impression it is actually illegal in Qld and although maybe not illegal in other states.....frowned upon. I thought we were trying to let others know that the selling of unweaned birds to inexperienced people was not a good idea. No matter what people say though there is always going to be inexperienced people who buy unweaned birds.......we need to be able to give them help or point them in the direction of an expert in their area if possible.........we can't just turn our backs. Even though we do not "support the selling of unweaned birds" ...... I think we need to be available to help and support people who need help and not just turn our backs....... It would seem that Ben made a unilateral change yesterday - adding the last line from what I remember of the original post that Tracey made. I agree essentially with what you say Tracey - the Forum should not allow advertising or promotion of the sale of unweaned babies, however it should allow discussion and help to anyone who has purchased an unweaned baby and is having problems. And regarding the legal situation - in Queensland it is legal to trade native species that are unweaned to experienced breeders only - or it was when I helped to write the regulations back in 2003-4. That was basically interpreted as being between licensed breeders only. There are no laws directly covering non-native species such as Sun Conures - they fall under the general animal welfare legislation. I don't know the regulations in other states but would assume it is much the same. cheers, Mike |
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Post by vankarhi on Sept 12, 2010 16:23:49 GMT 10
I just had a talk to someone and she told me she had rung I think it is ecoacess?? The people we send our licences and movement advises to and they told her it is not essentially illegal to sell unweaned babies, it is left up to the descretion of the breeder not to sell to inexperienced people.......... I hope I worded that correctly. I myself though am going to ring them tomorrow so I can hear it for myself before I go "sprouting" off things I think I have heard. Not that I doubt anyone ;D I need to be able to say "I know because I rang" lol ;D
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Post by conureowner1 on Sept 12, 2010 19:57:48 GMT 10
i can understand everyones point of view but the way i see it everyone learnt how to hand rear one way or another everyone started somewhere. The only way to gain experience is to be shown,taught then do it yourself. Instand of bad mouthing or putting down people who want to hand rear how about giving the proper advice eg like contact a exeprienced breeder who will show and teach them to hand rear.
I might not have 20 years exeprience like robyn or mike but I have some experience. I love to spend as much time as possible with my parrots specially while there being hand reared. The more time spent with them when being hand reared the better the pet. Some breeders just feed them put them back in the brooder. To me that doe not make a good pet, They need to be interacted with handled,cuddled.
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Post by avinet on Sept 12, 2010 20:57:37 GMT 10
I just had a talk to someone and she told me she had rung I think it is ecoacess?? The people we send our licences and movement advises to and they told her it is not essentially illegal to sell unweaned babies, it is left up to the descretion of the breeder not to sell to inexperienced people.......... I hope I worded that correctly. I myself though am going to ring them tomorrow so I can hear it for myself before I go "sprouting" off things I think I have heard. Not that I doubt anyone ;D I need to be able to say "I know because I rang" lol ;D I can save you the trouble of phoning - I found the relevant part of the legislation, and have copied below. As I remember from when we were drafting it back in 2003-4, when I was a member of the government committee revising the legislation, it explicitly allows movement, including sale, of native birds between licence holders. There is no regulation concerning exotic species. Prior to 2004 it was strictly speaking illegal to move baby native birds to someone else for hand raising however it was quite commonly done and I was able to successfully argue for it to be legalised. The link for those really interested is at www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/N/NatureConWiMR06.pdf and it is section 321 on page 193 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 321 Using live protected animals that are not self-sufficient(1) This section applies if— (a) a person keeps, or intends to keep, a live protected animal under the Act; and (b) the animal— (i) can not feed itself; or (ii) is a bird that is too young to fly; or (iii) is a mammal that has not been weaned; or (iv) has visible signs of illness or injury. (2) The person must not, without the chief executive’s written approval, buy or accept, sell or give away, send or move the animal. (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to— (a) a sick, injured or orphaned animal sent or moved to or from a veterinary surgeon for treatment or care; or (b) an animal that is, or is to be, sent or moved with its mother; or (c) a captive bred bird that is, or is to be, sent or moved from the holder of a wildlife authority for the bird to another holder of a wildlife authority for the bird, for hand raising the bird; or (d) a bird’s egg that is, or is to be, sent or moved from the holder of a wildlife authority for the bird to another holder of a wildlife authority for the bird, for artificial incubation or foster parent incubation of the egg. (4) In this section— wildlife authority, for a bird, means a licence, permit or other authority authorising the holder of the authority to keep the bird. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - cheers Mike |
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Post by vankarhi on Sept 12, 2010 22:07:59 GMT 10
(c) a captive bred bird that is, or is to be, sent or moved from the holder of a wildlife authority for the bird to another holder of a wildlife authority for the bird, for hand raising the bird; or (d) a bird’s egg that is, or is to be, sent or moved from the holder of a wildlife authority for the bird to another holder of a wildlife authority for the bird, for artificial incubation or foster parent incubation of the egg. So is this saying that "we" can "obtain" birds or eggs as long as we have a licence??? Or basically between breeders?? (4) In this section— wildlife authority, for a bird, means a licence, permit or other authority authorising the holder of the authority to keep the bird. and is this one meaning ............ breeders or people with a licence?? Sometimes I need things literally spelt out to me  Oh and I notice it was dated 2006 and re written or printed in 2010 so that is pretty up to date. |
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Post by avinet on Sept 12, 2010 22:34:01 GMT 10
(4) In this section— wildlife authority, for a bird, means a licence, permit or other authority authorising the holder of the authority to keep the bird. and is this one meaning ............ breeders or people with a licence?? Sometimes I need things literally spelt out to me Oh and I notice it was dated 2006 and re written or printed in 2010 so that is pretty up to date. My intention when arguing for the regulation was that it would be legal to move baby native birds if both parties had a licence, and I think that is the interpretation that would be placed on it as finally written. The trouble was that the committee looking at the regulations would decide what they wanted to happen, but the actual wording was written by the parliamentary draftsmen - the legal experts. A few things didn't turn out quite as clear cut as we would have liked. The thinking was that if they both had a licence, that would at least imply some degree of knowledge and experience. If the receiver didn't have a licence then there was a greater chance of them being too inexperienced to properly hand raised. Having said all that it isn't generally rocket science to hand rear baby parrots. These days with all the resources of the internet available someone has to try pretty hard to make a mess of it, or just be unlucky with a baby that was sick to start with. If they follow the tried and trusted methods most will have good results. Way back in the dark ages, well 20 years ago, there was no internet, virtually no books, no commercial formulas (I mixed my own for 2 years until Roudybush became available) and few others with experience to turn to. And I started out with cockatiels, probably one of the harder species to rear successfully. And we and the babies seemed to muddle through successfully, learning as we went along. cheers, Mike |
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Post by carlsandclan on Sept 13, 2010 1:01:30 GMT 10
You know, there are many reasons why someone might buy an unweaned baby. Like there are many reasons why someone would seek to sell one. I don't like the idea of trading in unweaned birds - just like I hate to see puppies get sold at 6 weeks of age when they are too young. BUT, sometimes there is a good reason behind it. And for the most part, people who buy unweaned babies have at least SOME experience with hand raising. I honestly don't think there are very many people who decide to just do it on a whim.
We shouldn't promote or encourage the trade. Absolutely! But if someone needs help with rearing, we should be there to offer it! I know that if I knew someone who had a baby bird, but became unable to rear it themselves, I couldn't bring myself to say no - is that a bad thing? Honestly, people who come here are true animal lovers, because they wouldn't be asking for advice and help if they weren't. And everyone has to start somewhere - it's so much easier to muddle through when you can talk to others who have been there before.
Carls
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Post by Robyn on Sept 13, 2010 6:38:56 GMT 10
Thank-you Mike, I was trying to find that info yesterday but couldn't find where in the folder i had it.
Tracey, this only applies to Australian Natives, not Exotics. In fact these rules do apply to me as i incubate natives {Red Tails eggs} for another licenced person for the purpose of hand rearing the chicks when they hatch.
My own reason for inexperienced people NOT to buy unweaned baby birds of any species & why i never make a practice of selling nestlings, is because i usually see the stuff ups they make when they bring the poor little thing to me to fix.
One example is the little Red Tail i am trying to help at the moment. I am battling the worst case of Thrush i have ever seen in a baby bird. And that bub came from a very experienced hand rearer. Yes we have stuff ups to. The point i am trying to make here is when your experienced you should have the insight to be able to detect a problem before it manifests into something worse & is so hard to treat. If most of you could see what i have to put this little guy through when his crop won't empty, You wouldn't even contemplate hand rearing.
When someone buys a bird unweaned i very much doubt they think for one minute they could & sometimes do get into trouble. I know that didn't cross my mind when i first started out.
And Carls i agree totally with what you have said. Except i do know some breeders advertise nestlings of 2 weeks old, normally exotics & sell to inexperienced people. The majority of people get through fine & bring up a healthy bird.
As much as we frown on the practice of people buying unweaned for any reason surely they go into it with eyes wide open. What concerns me the most is the breeder that force weans a baby bird & then the unsuspecting buyer doesn't have a clue as to why the baby bird screams all the time.
Hopefully we have now put this to rest & if someone just happens to find themselves in trouble they should feel they can come on the forum for help & get some answers to whats wrong. Most of the time it's a simple thing that needs to be changed.
Cheers,
Robyn.
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Post by vankarhi on Sept 13, 2010 7:24:36 GMT 10
I have seen ads for unweaned babies on Petlink....to buy and sell.......I think that is wrong. Anyway I think enough has been said now.
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Ollie at 8 1/2 months. 
Rosie at 3 months.
