Yan
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Post by Yan on Jun 2, 2012 17:29:26 GMT 10
 I got myself a little Musk Lorikeet, she's now 10, almost 11 weeks old (at least I think it's a she? No blue on the head). My problem is she won't eat dry food at all, she only wants her wet mix. Every now and then she'll take a lick at the dry food and shake her head like she doesn't like it. It's the Avian Science brand, could it just be the flavour she isn't a fan of? She won't eat apples, grapes or anything else that my conure will sit and eat right in front of her. Also, I've never seen a Musk Lori this dark! There was another one in her cage which I was told was her sibling, looked like a male with a bright blue head and normal bright colouration. Is her colour normal or could she be a hybrid? Also could someone recommend an avian vet located around the parramatta area or as close to as possible. I want both birds health checked.  |
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Post by avinet on Jun 2, 2012 21:45:51 GMT 10
The Musk baby is an Olive, or Grey-green mutation - you will see either used at times but it means the same. The absence of the blue comes with the mutation and gives no indication of the sex, so it could be male or female.
I wouldn't worry too much about still only eating wet mix - it is still very young, only just weaned, and it will get more adventurous about food as it grows up. Keep giving it choices and eventually it will try and start eating them. Granny Smith cooking apples are the favourite, preferred to sweeter eating apples, and it might be worth getting a different brand of dry mix - there are differences between brands and some lorikeets like one and not another. I recommend avoiding Sheps brand, and Avian Science isn't my favourite brand either - see if you can get Aristopet, some birds seem to like it better, but it is a bit of pot luck as to which your bird will prefer.
The two closest vets I can recommend fairly near Parramatta are:-
Dr Jim Gill
Shop 6 Harden St & Avoca Rd, Canley Heights
96049792
and
Dr Stacey Gellis
18-22 Delhi Rd North Ryde
98889800
both are excellent vets well worth a bit of a drive to see with a bird, and go to whichever one is easier for you. If you see Stacey say hi from me to him - Mike from Mooloolaba - he used to be our bird vet on the Sunshine Coast until moving to Sydney a couple of years ago - tell him we miss him!
cheers,
Mike
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Post by crystal7 on Jun 3, 2012 13:26:58 GMT 10
Mike has given you some good advice. I wouldn't worry too much about the dry mix, but try putting it next to the water dish, that may help. Perhaps try grating some apple etc. into the wet mix so he gets a taste. Good luck
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Yan
Newbie
Posts: 11
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Post by Yan on Jun 18, 2012 19:56:05 GMT 10
Hi guys, I haven't managed to get to the vet yet as it's been a bit hectic at work and I never know what days I'm working. Will hopefully get my birds in this saturday. I'm still having the same problem with the Musk, she refuses everything except a 50/50 mix of wet lori mix and egg and biscuit. She won't have either one of them straight either, it has to be a fairly even mix. I tried another brand of wet and dry and she doesn't like those either. I tried grating the apple into her food and she just ate around it. She's now licking at a few pieces of fresh and dried fruit but doesn't understand how to bite and eat them. She did eat a piece of pea off my conures beak once but that was it. I'm at a loss with what to do with her, I've never had a bird be this difficult.  |
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Gerard
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Post by Gerard on Jun 19, 2012 18:12:37 GMT 10
Yan, sometimes a bit if patience is what is required. The bird is only very young and will take time develop a more adventurous pallet. Birds are birds, and therefore don't necessarily conform to when we think they should do be doing things. As long as it is maintaining a healthy weight and is in good condition, I wouldn't be too concerned. Your avian vet will be able to advise you if anything is amiss.
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Post by avinet on Jun 19, 2012 21:40:19 GMT 10
As Gerard says, the bird is still young and will get more adventurous. If it looks healthy, is not losing weight and seems happy then don't worry. Keep offering dry powder and fruit of various kinds and eventually it's natural curiosity will start it trying them. If you want to wean it off egg and biscuit, then every few days reduce the proportion in the mix by a small amount - over 3 or 4 weeks you should be able to cut the E&B out completely.
If it looks like not eating the mix when you offer it don't panic and immediately give it what it wants. Leave the mix in with it for 12 hours at least - birds are not stupid and virtually all will end up eating what is available rather than starving.
cheers,
Mike
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Yan
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Post by Yan on Jun 23, 2012 20:04:36 GMT 10
Had a trip to the vet today, both birds have thrush, the Musk worse than my Conure but otherwise very healthy and in good weight. The vet said they should both happily take their medication from the syringe as it's meant to taste nice however both birds needed to be restrained and given it bit by bit with a lot of protest. Is there another way? She advised pouring the wet mix over different foods to help getting him eating new stuff while gradually making the wet mix drier and drier (which I've been doing - that method has always worked within two weeks for me in the past) so hopefully I'll have a good update in a week or two. |
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Gerard
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Post by Gerard on Jun 24, 2012 9:37:39 GMT 10
I don't mean to sound harsh Yan, but you need to stop taking shortcuts! Since your musk has thrush, it probably finds the wet mix easier to swallow because it is less irritating to its throat. I am only reading between the lines here, but I am not sure that you have learned any lessons from this series of events, which should include, but not limited to:
1). All new bird acquisitions should be quarantined in a separate cage and preferably in a separate room for at least a month before being introduced to healthy birds so that we can assess their health.
2). All new bird acquisitions should be wormed
3). All new bird acquisitions should be examined by your avian vet as soon as practical after purchase so that any health issues can be addressed.
4). When given a set of instructions by your vet regarding the administration of a treatment FOLLOW THEM TO THE LETTER or you may find the condition/ailment virtually impossible to eliminate.
Failure to follow steps 1 & 3 is why you have two birds with thrush rather than one as I am tipping that both birds have had access to the same water and food dishes. I think that it is also reasonable to assume that your musk has had thrush since you acquired it. I also think that you are extremely lucky that the only disease transferred to the conure is thrush and not something much nastier.
In addition to the treatment that your vet has provided you with I would also advise that you do the following:
a). Clean out and scrub their cage from top to bottom with a disinfectant such as Avi-Care from Vetafarm; and
b). Remove all toys, perches, etc from the cage and give these a good clean with disinfectant as well.
c). I noticed from the first photo that you have rope perches and toys. These will need to be washed with disinfectant and then detergent, rinsed thoroughly and then left to dry. I would use would wooden perches and toys until the thrush has been eliminated otherwise you will find that the birds may keep reinfecting themselves. It is no different than you or I using a another family member's towel if they have candida or thrush.
d). I would permanently discard any rope toys with tassels. PERIOD! Yes they might look pretty, but should one come loose and become entangled around your bird's foot or toe it could lead to that limb or toe requiring amputation.
I have yet to see anyone make great gains by taking shortcuts. This is not just true with birds, but of life in general. What we are prepared to put into it, will more often than not, determine what we get out of it.
We all make mistakes, but it is was we learn after we know it all that counts!
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Post by avinet on Jun 24, 2012 13:44:33 GMT 10
I'm afraid I do think you are being a bit harsh here Gerard.
Thrush is a yeast infection, more accurately know as Candidiasis, caused by the yeast Candida albicans. This is exactly the same yeast organism that causes thrush in humans - most babies will get thrush in the mouth at some stage of their life, and most women have also become familiar with the problem. Candida exists naturally in all human digestive systems, and likely also in all bird digestive systems - almost all gram negative slides of bird droppings I have looked at have had an occasional cell of Candida in them.
Baby birds are especially prone to get a Candida infection, especially lorikeets and cockatiels that are being hand raised. The yeast loves the environment that lorikeets hand rearing food in particular provides, and a Candida infection is always a risk when raising a lorikeet. Some breeders will give Nilstat as a preventative when raising lorikeets.
It is NOT infectious between birds, but is an organism that opportunistically takes advantage of favourable conditions to grow and become a problem. It is NOT necessary to disinfect the cage, toys and surrounds when treating for Candida. The organism cannot survive for long once outside the body of the bird and away from body temperature. Normal cage cleanliness is sufficient.
Treatment for Candida is usually Nilstat drops - the same medication that is used to treat human babies with thrush in the mouth. It is an S3 drug, meaning it can be purchased from a chemist without prescription, but name address and purpose have to be provided. Tell the chemist it is to treat Candida in a parrot, dosage is 0.25ml/100gm body weight. Nilstat is a contact medication - it has to come into contact with the Candida yeast to kill it. For that reason there is no alternative but to give it into the mouth and ensure some is swallowed. I always give it via crop tube, with most going into the crop and a drop being into the mouth as I withdraw the tube. If you are not experienced using a crop tube then into the mouth is the only way. It cannot be give mixed with food - that makes it far less effective, and to ensure the most effect it should be given 30 minutes before feeding a bird so it doesn't get diluted out by the bulk of the food.
Quarantine is one of those things that sounds great in theory but my experience is that it is mostly a waste of time. I never quarantine birds that come home. Over the years, and with 20 years of owning a pet shop, I used to happily bring birds home from the shop, some that were sick and coming home for treatment, my own birds would visit the shop (where there could be several hundred birds in the aviaries), babies being hand raised would go to and fro from the shop (sometimes 30 or more babies being transported), and I never, ever had a problem with disease being spread as a result.
Our only nod towards quarantining was to worm all new birds arriving in the shop, and the treatment of all budgies for scaly mite.
Trimming the frayed ends of rope toys is worthwhile, although the dangers from this is greatly exaggerated - over my 20 years in the shop we would see on average about 1 bird a year that had got caught up in frayed rope and had to be cut free, and I don't recall any that lost a foot or even a toe.
cheers,
Mike
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Gerard
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Post by Gerard on Jun 24, 2012 15:38:18 GMT 10
I stand by my comments Mike. I am well aware that thrush is a yeast infection. All articles I have read refer to cage sanitation/disinfection and do mention the possibility of spread from bird to bird via droppings or spoiled fruit/vegies. birdhealth.com.au/bird/er/infections.html#thrushpeteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=3090avianbiotech.com/Diseases/candida.htmedis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm031orlandopetservices.com/candidiasis-in-birds-syptoms-and-treatmentAll the above articles refer to one or more of the following; 1). The need to quarantine new birds. 2). Sanitation and hygiene. 3). Possible transmission from one bird to another. 4). That failure to treat the infection properly may cause it to become resistant to treatment. Given that the conure is older than the lorikeet and should have a stronger/more developed immune system, I am curious how you thought this bird has acquired thrush other than from bird-to-bird or bird-to-item-to-bird? Yan, you've done a good job taking them to the vet, but so that we all can learn something, what led you to take both birds to the vet? Did you do it on your own or did the vet suggest it? Gerard It's what we learn after we know it all that counts |
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Yan
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Post by Yan on Jun 24, 2012 16:08:16 GMT 10
Thank you, Mike.
As I said, the vet gave them a full bill of health (they both got worming the day after I brought the Musk home) and said they are both in good weight and condition, actually said the Musk is a little chubby. She didn't suspect there was anything wrong with them until I mentioned the Conure having the occasional runny dropping. The only problem is the thrush for which she prescribed Mycostatin at 0.2ml twice a day which looks like a standard treatment from the googling I've done. I have issues getting anywhere near that amount into the birds because they don't like it. I'm not familiar with crop tube and I don't think I would be comfortable using one even if I knew how to unfortunately. I have quite unsteady hands.
Now to explain the thrush, we both agreed that the most likely cause is from droppings in the wet mix. The Musk won't eat out of the covered bowl which would stop that being an issue. I'm working on that. In the mean time I am not able to come home using public transport from my full time job 3-5 times a day to change their wet mix and what other choice do I have but to leave them with that food? Starve my lorikeet for 9 hours a day 5 days a week? I don't think that's an appropriate choice. I knew this was a problem which is why I've asked for help getting her to eat other foods. This is going to be a nasty cycle that won't break until the bird will expand her diet. She is painfully slow in getting more adventurous, she tried and enjoyed a grain of brown rice, a bit of pea and a few licks of green apple today.
I scrubbed everything (perches, toys, cages, etc) the birds frequent using scorching hot water with a cup of vinegar in it then placed it all in the sun to dry as soon as I got home from the vet and threw out their cardboard tunnel, cuttle bone, and most other things made of porous fibers as a precaution.
If you look in any of my pictures you will see all my cotton perches and toys are all in good condition and will be thrown away when they start to show signs of wear. In the mean time, there isn't so much as a thread out of place and I haven't had a problem with cotton or tasseled toys in the 15 odd years I've kept my budgies, cockatiels, doves, etc.
Thanks for the advice.
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Gerard
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Post by Gerard on Jun 24, 2012 17:00:02 GMT 10
Yan...you will get there. Treatment can be a pain in the proverbial. We all have to get the hang of using a crop needle eventually...and at least you'll get some practice in, lol.  I think you'll find it easier to expand the bird's diet once you've eliminated the candida. By the way, did you know that Muskies don't have a crop? I only found this out because your thread made me read about them. Good luck Yan, Gerard It's what we learn after we know it all that counts |
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Post by avinet on Jun 24, 2012 22:02:04 GMT 10
By the way, did you know that Muskies don't have a crop? I only found this out because your thread made me read about them. I have always understood Lorikeets have a crop, although a less muscular crop than seed eating parrots. Certainly when I have been hand raising them something suspiciously like a crop is filling up with food www.lafebervet.com/avian-medicine-list/basic-information-sheets-for-the-lory-and-lorikeet/ is one reference to the lorikeet crop. Rosemary Low's Encyclopedia of the Lories also refers to the crop in Lorikeets. Can you provide the link to the absence of a crop in Musks? cheers, Mike |
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Gerard
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Post by Gerard on Jun 25, 2012 5:28:20 GMT 10
Reader's Digest Complete Book of Australian Birds - Second Edition Revised - P288. Quote: "Like all other Lorikeets, the Musk is primarily a pollen- and nectar-feeder, the pollen thought to provide much of the protein in its diet. For the ready digestion of this liquid food with its tiny particles, the birds have a simple alimentary tract without a crop and quite a small unmuscled stomach". This only refers to Musk Lorikeets and no other reference regarding this feature appears regarding other Lorikeets. I'm sure you would have a copy of this book amongst your vast collection Mike.
Anytime,
Gerard.
It's what we learn after we know it all that counts
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Post by avinet on Jun 25, 2012 17:48:05 GMT 10
Reader's Digest Complete Book of Australian Birds - Second Edition Revised - P288. Quote: " Like all other Lorikeets, the Musk is primarily a pollen- and nectar-feeder, the pollen thought to provide much of the protein in its diet. For the ready digestion of this liquid food with its tiny particles, the birds have a simple alimentary tract without a crop and quite a small unmuscled stomach". This only refers to Musk Lorikeets and no other reference regarding this feature appears regarding other Lorikeets. I'm sure you would have a copy of this book amongst your vast collection Mike. I have the first edition but not the second, and the first does not mention anything about crops. I can't imagine where they got that from. I have checked out several major books on parrots and looked particularly at lorikeet information. None mention the absence of a crop in any lorikeet species, but many make mention of the presence of a crop, although as I noted previously, a crop not as muscular as in seed eating parrots. I also phoned the author of the ABK Guide to Lories & Lorikeets (lives nearby) as well as an avian vet and they both confirmed a crop is present. So, I guess the moral is not to believe everything that Readers Digest tell you  cheers, Mike |
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Gerard
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Post by Gerard on Jun 25, 2012 23:03:39 GMT 10
Now, now Michael...play fair. My quote refers to Musk Lorikeets specifically, not Lories, Lorikeets and/or Parrots generally as you have done. The book only refers to this specific physiological feature being present in Glossopsitta concinna. It makes no reference to this feature being present in any other family, genus or species of Lory, Lorikeet and/or Parrot. You asked me to back up my claim with a recognised reference to that claim, I did. I am referring to the REVISED Second Edition, and therefore one could be fairly certain that all errors and omissions would have been corrected. The reference is obviously of such excellence and undeniable standing that you yourself invested the time and money to acquire the first edition, which I'm sure holds pride of place in your rather substantial personal library.  Inside the cover it states, and I quote, "It is a general reference work for the ornithologist". Virtually all the contributors seem to have PhD after their names too. I don't know Mike, these are very serious Bird Nerds (as Jeckylberry would say) that you're messing with. After all, it's not my word you're not taking, it's theirs. Despite my extensive hunting around on the net I cannot find anything that would disprove the book's statement that Glossopsitta concinna does not possess a crop. Further to this, Reader's Digest Complete Book of Australian Birds (second revised edition of course) also makes a second interesting observation in the section "Classification by Order and Family: Order Psittaciformes" on page 625 and I quote: "Most have a crop for storing food and all possess downy aftershafts, a solid palate and lack caeca on the intestine"This would also lend weight to the reference's claim that Musk Lorikeets do not have a crop and not being merely an ambit claim or an error as you have suggested. Maybe the moral of the story is to keep our references up to date. However, salvation can still be yours. If you disagree with the content of this exquisite reference of undeniable standing, then you can simply have it changed! To do this, I would recommend you carve up, dissect and/or perform an autopsy on a Cactus concinna, take a photo and circle the crop, if there is indeed one to be photographed, and send it in to them. There is a small note a few pages in that states: "We are interested in receiving your comments on the content of this book. Write to:
The Editor, General Books Editorial,
Readers Digest (Australia) Pty Limited,
26-32 Waterloo Street, Surrey Hills, NSW 2010
or e-mail us at bookeditors.au@readersdigest.comAs always, thanks for the light-hearted banter, ;D Gerard. It's what we learn after we know it all that counts. |
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Post by avinet on Jun 26, 2012 10:54:41 GMT 10
Well we have diverged from the subject matter of the thread haven't we For the record, I also have a Ph.D. although I admit not in ornithology. I shall have to go see if our local library has the 2nd edition - obviously there is much more content than is in the 1st. My likelihood of getting a Musk to autopsy is remote and so my final word on the subject is that:- a/ the author of the Guide to Lories and Lorikeets tells me that Musks have a crop b/ A highly respected avian vet who has no doubt autopsied Musks says they have a crop, c/ when I hand feed a young Musk a crop certainly fills up with food exactly as it does in other Lorikeets cheers, Dr. Mike ;D |
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Post by Robyn on Jun 26, 2012 17:12:35 GMT 10
I have to agree with you Dr. Mike According to the 3rd edition of Australian Parrots by forshaw & Cooper. Musks must have crops because in two specimen collected in SA they had seeds, vegetable matter & caterpillars in their crops & stomachs. Of course you can't always believe what you read. And trust me i have read some crap in some books on birds. I think i would have to trust what Stan Sindel had to say about the keeping & breeding of Musk Lorikeets. |
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Yan
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Post by Yan on Jun 26, 2012 20:05:42 GMT 10
And back on topic, Wiggs the Musk, crop or cropless is now eating or at least mouthing most of the things in a cooked bird food by the name of Veg Supreme, so we're getting there. She also went to town on a spinach leaf yesterday. She still hates the dry mix though.
I also caught her chewing at some millet I'd given my Conure which she's never shown interest in before. I know you're not supposed to give Lorikeets seed but is millet spray all right as a once a week or so treat?
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Post by avinet on Jun 26, 2012 21:36:49 GMT 10
Glad to hear the medication is helping and the Musk is coming around to trying different foods. A bit of seed isn't a problem, but not too much. Because their digestive system isn't designed for processing dry seeds they will get little nutrition from seed and if they have access to abundant seed some will eat too much to the detriment of nutritious food, with malnutrition the result. If the Musk does the occasional cage hopping and gets a bit of seed don't worry, but perhaps make it a bit hard for him to do so.
cheers,
Mike
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I think you'll find it easier to expand the bird's diet once you've eliminated the candida. By the way, did you know that Muskies don't have a crop? I only found this out because your thread made me read about them. 
