Red-rumps - Help for the new boy !!

[Viraba]

Hi Everyone,
You may recall a few weeks ago I was asking questions regarding the genetics for my pair of red-rumps. I have a 'normal' cock bird (don't know if he carries any splits etc.) with a cinnamon hen (I think !.......ditto re splits).

She's a very light coloured bird compared to the male but was sold to me as a normal hen. I saw a normal hen yesterday at a friends place and my bird is nowhere near as dark and is a solid pale pastel green/ gray colour over the back.

Anyway, the pair have successfully hatched 3 chicks and today was the first day that I really got a good look at them........first batch for both parents and didn't want to disturb them to much at first. The chicks are now feathering and I'm interested in your opinions as to what I might have here.

One chick is much larger & darker then the other 2 (I suspect a normal male !) however the 2 smaller ones are in light feather (almost yellow ?) and both have pink eyes and beaks........like I'd expect an albino to be like ! As they both have the pink eyes can I expect future problems with blindness/ eye sensitivity or do something to reduce the possibility of these problems ?

I'm hoping to have some photo's posted shortly of both the chicks and parents but would be interested in your thoughts. I have no knowledge of previous blood-lines etc for either parent.

Many Thanks

Viraba

[hillcresttiels]

Hi Viraba until we see photos my guess is you have 1 chick Nrml Male split to cinn and possibly Lutino and the other 2 chicks are Lutino's and should be Hens. cheers Frank

[AussieBirds]

Yes Frank your right about the colour of the babies, It looks like the Male bird was split to Lutino and he has passed on the gene to the babies. The two Lutino babies will be hens for sure.

John

[Viraba]

Thank's Guys,
I'll have some photo's on line shortly so you can have a look at them.

Is there likely to be any problem with light sensitivity or anything ?

Viraba

[AussieBirds]

Hi Viraba
No problems with light sensitivity at all, I have a pair that gives me Lutino babies every time she breeds they are a very nice bird and very much sort after I have no problem selling them.

John

[Viraba]

Sorry Everyone,
I just realised that the link in previous messages may not have worked (my problem, not yours)

Can you have a look at the photo's of both the chicks & Mum & Dad for me and see if it confirms your thoughts ?

home.ripway.com/2004-11/197519/

Many Thanks


Viraba

[AussieBirds]

Looks like a Lutino to me Viraba so it will be a hen and should start to yellow up very soon, they are a nice looking bird.

John

[Viraba]

Thank's John,

These photo's are about 5 days old and you're right, the chicks are now starting to colour.

What of Mum........a cinnamon you think ??. If so, the reason for the lutino hens is that Dad's split to lutino...it doesn't have anything to do with Mum is that correct ?

Just trying to get my head around this genetics stuff. I read you guys on other threads talking about it with the tiels and I get lost real quick.

What are your thoughts about crossing back to mum or dad with one of the young ? I've read that some do it and others don't like to.........I've got to say up front that I'm in the "don't like to" camp at present. Do you see any benefit in doing that ?

One other question, if I put this cock (split to lutino) to a lutino hen what am I likely to get ?

Thanks

VIraba

[senn]

so,

was it you asking about hand-rearing them a while ago?

if so then all the best.

quite nice looking little birds there.

[hillcresttiels]

Hi Viraba John will probably agree that i don't think as an inexperienced breeder you are well prepared for inbreeding leave that to those who are willing to take the risks which are many. Mum looks Cinnamon to me and the genetics you mention are correct the young lutino chick is a trait passed on from dad even though he isn't lutino he carries it in his genetic make up. Lutino is a sex linked trait and with hens they cannot carry the gene they must show it visually cheers Frank

[AussieBirds]

What Frank has posted is exactly right, the hen is a cinnamon and cannot be split. That means the male is the split and is carrying the Ino gene so everytime they breed you should get at least one Lutino hen. If you get any males from the pairing the male should have a trace of yellow on his red patch on his rump. The Cockbird should be showing a trace of white on the tail feathers and on the flight feathers, that will confirm the Ino gene.

John

[Viraba]

Yeah thank's Frank, As I said I'm in the camp of not wanting to cross back to mum or dad anyway but thought I'd ask the question as I've heard so many different points of view.

Are you saying that regardless of the hen that I put this cock too the probability is that any hens I end up with would be lutino ?

Senn, it was me enquiring into hand-raising but I decided that not this time. My daughter is the one that's really interested and she's in the middle of exams at present so I could see that the task would be falling onto Dad !! .............and Dad had to go away too much in the last few weeks so we left them with Mum & Dad who have been doing a great job. We've been trying to handle them as much as possible though to get them used to us.

Viraba

[AussieBirds]

Hi Viraba,
Sex Linked.
With this gene (Ino) only normal looking cockbirds carry the gene in Red Rumps, thay are called splits. You cannot get a split hen, so any one that tells you different is telling you fibs.

The following applies to all sex linked gene mutations, in this case we will use the Lutino mutation.

A split cock to a normal hen will give you Lutino hens, Normal hens, possible split cockbirds and normal cockbirds. Any Lutinos in the nest will be hens.

A normal Cockbird to a Lutino hen gives you Normal hens and split cockbirds.

A split cockbird to a Lutino hen will give you Lutino Cockbirds and hens, normal hens and split cockbirds.

A Lutino to Lutino gives you Lutino both sexs.

To answer your question regarding back breeding it's not really acceptable, It weakens the strain however you can breed brother to sister ONCE only and you won't have any problems.
I hope this helps.

John

[hillcresttiels]

Hi Viraba because he is split Lutino the probabilities are 1 in 2 hens born from your cockbird irrespective of what hen you put him too will be Lutino all other hens born will be normal.The babies you have in the nest now 1 is definately a hen because we know its Lutino the other could be male or female because it's normal. please note in the following this symbol "/ "in Genetic terms means "split to"

Cock(sire)Normal/Lutino X Hen(Dam)Cinnamon


Possible outcomes of offspring;

Cocks Born= 50% Normal/Lutino/Cinnamon
50% Normal/Cinnamon

Hens Born= 50% Normal
50% Lutino
As you can see Viraba the outcome with Cocks born is that some will be (Normal split to Lutino and Cinnamon) and some will be (Normal split to Cinnamon) and only future breeding with these male will determine which is which. As John mentioned sometimes little signs of a Split Lutino is noticeable from a yellow marking on the Red patch on his rump Hope it's now clear for you cheers Frank

[Viraba]

Hey guys, thanks very much for the info. What you've said makes it a lot clearer for me. It's really interesting isn't it...............I can see how it can take over !!!!

In the nest at the moment I actually have 2 lutino hens and the normal chick. I just couldn't get them all together so photos showing the lutino chicks are actually 2 different chicks.

John, thanks for the advice on the back-breeding. If I decide to get further into Red-rumps, I'll probably introduce another line by getting hold of another 2 unrelated pairs. I know that there's so many mutations of these guys. I wonder if we're in danger though of loosing the 'pure' line as with the budgies........I'm trying to locate a pair of bush budgies at present and having all sorts of trouble.

Cheers

Viraba

[hillcresttiels]

I,m sorry if i offend but there is no way I would breed brother to sister.Line breeding is determined from strong fertile families and only then Mother to Son or Father to Daughter and even safer Siblings to their Uncle and Aunties but in no way brother to sister too many infertile and malformed varieties have been developed this way. I have seen birds deveolped with no toes no eyes wings back to front and worse which I cannot mention and it only takes once, sorry John hope this hasn't got up your nose as it's only my opinion! cheers Frank

[fischer]

Hi Viraba, I did see some Bush Budgies advertised on Aust Pet Link a week or so back, they seem to come up for sale there quite often.
You are right in your guess that in some species we are in danger of looseing the normal colour bird, Peach Face Lovebirds
come to mind as an example, its nearly impossible to buy a normal green that isn't split for another colour, I can see a time ,in the not too distant future, when a pure normal bird will be worth more than any colour mutation
Good luck with the budgies, Cheers Tony

[AussieBirds]

Hi Viraba
Back breeding isnt recommended and I wouldnt do it, in fact I strongly recommend that you don't, it is far better to introduce unrelated lines.

What i am saying is that i know breeders that have back bred once to produce the mutation they want. However i still stay it is not the right thing to do, If we are that fanatical to do this at the cost of pure blood lines and the possibility of introducing imperfect birds just to get a colour then I believe we have lost the whole purpose of breeding.

You are doing the right thing by introducing unrelated stock to your aviary.

Frank you are not offending me that's what this forum is for, expressing opinions and it would be a dull old world if we all agreed on everything and beside that I agree with you does that make me dull ? .

John

[hillcresttiels]

No John not dull quite the opposite and thats what makes this forum special cheers Frank ;D

[Viraba]

Hey guys,
I've really appreciated your discussions here and it's great to get your opinions. I also respect your frankness in delivering them (that's also why I like this forum, good advice delivered expertly and in a way that's not threatening, keep it up !) .........the reason for my questions are partly because I don't quite understand the genetics thingy and in my attempts to get more information and other birds I had the experience of a 'breeder' trying to sell me some birds and he wouldn't tell me anything about their history. I suspected that they were brother & sister as he didn't appear to have that many birds to offer unrelated pairs. After pushing him for more information I found out that they were mother & son and had to listen to him expousing the benefits strengthening the colour/ strain etc by 'back-breeding'. He was also encouraging crosses to introduce new colour I walked away without them and your discussion here has made me feel a bit better about that decision ;D ;D

Tony thank's for the clues re the bush budgies. I have responded to some of the adverts on the net but am still a bit hesitant I guess to buy sight unseen. The other problem is that I live in NQ and by the time I pay for freight etc they become more expensive. So the problem I have is that there is only a relatively small number of birds within cooie of me, not many of them go up for sale all that often and when they do it's more then likely that they're related. Hence my comments on trying to keep a 'pure' strain in our avairies

It was really interesting to see my kids reaction when they first saw a genuine bush budgie............you mean they're not blue/ yellow in the wild ..........green and small, how boring is that !!!

I thought it was time for some education so went looking for the real deal

Anyway, cheers people.

I'll post some more up-to-date photos of the chicks when they're a bit older so you can see how the turn out !


Viraba