Information

[just4birds]

Ahhh i think we are kinda off the topic again here .... but would you really listen to your avain vet when he is just pushing the brand of pellets he has at his vet .... just cause your not feeding your bird what they say .. doesnt mean they arent healthy birds ...

I was talking to my avain vet last week while i was there ... and he had a customer that brough in an Eckie who was only fed ....wait for itttttttttttttt .... "CHICKEN MINCE" .... people like that in my book need a bomb up there bummmm ...

Mike: .... The veggie mush is great .... i love it and all my bird that i feed it to love it ... even visiting birds i try it out on ... if they love it i normally make up some for the owner to take home ...

I use to find it pretty time consuming but then it depends on how much you make at once time i guess ... i went out and got myself a steamer ... and if i put all my veggies in that and put my pot ont he stove with the soup mix etc in it ... 30 / 40 minutes its all done probably the longest thing is putting it in the bags for freezing ...

[abby-oldaccount]

hey at least I'm not raving about Linnies.
Ok back on track...
Obviously I won't convince you John that and all pellets diet is better then a seed and fresh food diet for reasons I've already stated.
As to what my guys get.. the 2 bigger birds get theirs is in larger chunks or whole (sugarsnap peas for example) but the basic mix is:

frozen peas/corn/peas/beans
Sprouted or soaked mix (depends on the day)
apple
celery
broccoli
capsicum
chilli once a week (whole for the big ones)
orange
green leafy (bok choy, spinach, baby silverbeet whatever is on special)
then anything else in season.
The lorikeets get more melon and fruit in theirs.

I do a rice bean veggie mix that I add to this when it's cooler.
Have just started trying the beak appetit which the inside guys get.
Quinoa when I can get hold of it is also added to the fresh mix rather then the rice base mix.
The aviary birds have calcium bells that they all show signs of being nibbled at. The lorikeets and Arthur (grey) get a calcium supplement in their water.
I also sprinkle pellets on the fresh mix with the exception of the lorikeets. With 12 different species here I have a basic and then just add o that according to the species.

[AussieBirds]

nurse01 said:

I am not going to write too much more. I am astounded by some of the viewpoints.

One point that seem to be repeating itself is that people seem to want to believe other people over vets. I am floored by this.

Can I just ask, why wouldn't you listen to a vet? UNbeLIEVable. I am sorry but if I had questions and a human doctor told me somthing, I wouldn't go to my neighbor and do what they told me to do instead.
Vets go to school for 5 years for a reason. NOT to mention avian specialists also spend a couple years out before they can do their membership in avian medicin (which I might add is HARD YARDS) then their is fellowship on top of that. Vets go to continuing education. Adrian speaks at conferences all over Australia (im going to an upcoming nurses conference and going to a talk given by him)
So, what i want to know- why wouldn't you listen to a vet about something as important as nutrition? I guarantee you, we do NOT make money on food!!

Don't get me wrong nurse01 I am not doubting what any vet says and believe me I am not attempting to offend anyone nor am i suggesting collusion by ALL vets, all I am asking is give me documented proof, as it would seem avinet has, that a pellet diet is better than a seed diet please don't be offended by my questions.

Mike I appreciate your post and will be very interested in further comments and information on this subject.

Abby I am not sure that you will never convince me about a pellet diet that's why I started the post the whole purpose of this thread is to provide myself and other members the information that will convince us what is the best for our birds health, and to be honest with you, don't tell anyone, I am starting to sway ;D so with all the information that is being posted here by avinet, nurse01, yourself and others it may be working .

John

[farseeker]

I don't have documentation on the benefits of pellets as opposed to seed, but I do have the experience of converting Jedi onto pellets and seeing the changes it made for her.

Most of you would remember that Jedi was quite a nervous bird and a feather chewer, which had been an issue since I got her. You might also remember that Squee had some behaviour problems which I later realised were largely due to his commercial food mix. He got a mix that I made myself and so I was actually quite leery of pellets to begin with.

Before I got Jedi though I did a bit of looking around (as you do) in regards to diet needs and so forth, and I kept hearing about pellets. So I looked into them more. Basically it boiled down seeds being firstly generally high in fat, which makes them tasty - that's why sunflowers are such a big hit as we know. Secondly, in giving a seed mix you're giving the parrot a choice in what seeds to eat, particularly if you don't take the care to remove sunflower seeds and such. That made sense to me at first - after all, they should know what they need, right? There's no guarantee that they do though, and I rather think that it's like people. I know that if offered a plate of steamed vegies and fish or a plate of roasted vegies and steak dianne which is better for me - I also know which one I'd take though, and it wouldn't have any steamed vegies. Perhaps your parrots eat every seed in their mix and that's great, but I know that Anath doesn't, and Jedi didn't either. She'd pick out her favourites and leave the rest.

In the end I decided to give pellets a go, and had a bag waiting for when I got Jedi. She (luckily for me) was very much not a fussy bird when it came to food when it was offered to her by hands, so she was converted onto pellets quite quickly. This would have been completed around the third week that I had her, which coincided with when her biting behaviour started to settle. Probably coincidence, though.

Over the next month, her feather quality improved, she was picking less and she wasn't as scared of new people. In general, she was a much calmer and happier bird. Part of this would have been the change in environment, but I truly believe it wouldn't have happened nearly as quickly if she hadn't been on the pellets.

Just as a note, her diet at her previous family was not bad - she was given a good quality seed mix, a vitamin supplement and a food bowl of fresh fruit and vegies every day.

Trouble is on pellets as well - Vetafarm South American pellets, and he rather likes them. Of course, if he's given seed he'll eat the seed first, but he has never turned his nose up at the pellets. Anath and Tristan will be converted to pellets (hopefully) once they are caged together.

Also - the comparison of pellets to McDonalds can also be made with seed. It's a high fat, tasty food but it doesn't give all the nutrients that parrots need, however much they may enjoy them.

As for what my birds get - Trouble gets pellets with a small amount of seed, the reason for which being that while seeds aren't necessarily healthy for them, their beaks are designed for hulling and I do believe it provides mental stimulation for them, so there is always a small amount given for that reason. The budgies are both on seed diets at the moment although as I said before I hope to convert them to pellets once they are caged together.

As far as fresh fruit and vegies go, they get whatever we have in the fridge - spinach, bok choy, pumpkin, carrot, capsicum, chilli, brocolli, apple, banana, rockmelon, passionfruit etc depending on what is available. I also keep a pack of frozen vegies in the freezer for when we run low on fresh stuff, buy sprouts on a regular basis and occasionally cook them rice and egg although none of them are big on those as of yet.

They also have access to cuttlefish in their cages, although I'll probably look at moving at least the budgies onto a calcium supplement, since Anath tears through her cuttlefish and Tristan has yet to touch it - I do believe that when they go together he won't stand a chance of getting near it, haha.

[vankarhi]

I probably shouldn't say this........but I am going to. I don't think people are doubting all vets and their knowledge or information on the health and well being of our "fids", but I do not take anyones word for gosple........unless I understand it and it sits good with me. I don't even believe everything my doctor says..........and am having serious issues with a doctor at the moment ........... I am going to look for a second opinion (it is not about me but about Caillean and I am seriously not a happy chappy at the moment and just wonder sometimes where these people "get their information from sometimes" ). I have a good vet here I take my birds too and another one I take my dogs too, but even when the bird vet (not avian) said something to me that didn't make sense to me I took the bird in question to Peter Gardiner in Bundaberg who did agree in part to the diagnosis but not the cause.

I don't think people are disputing what vets necessarily say..........but I don't think we should just blindly agree with what "experts" say just because they are "experts".......sometimes down the line they are found out to be wrong.

I have to say that on this I actually agree with Mary and her ideas and comments.

[abby-oldaccount]

I wrote that post with 5 minutes to leave this morning so left out an important word.
I won't TRY to convince you John because I don't personally believe that an ALL pellet diet is the best. I think they key word with both seed and pellet is ALL.

[vankarhi]

my thoughts exactly too Mary

[avinet]

Well tonight's little essay is about the problems with calcium in a seed and a pellet diet.

Calcium is an essential part of any veretebrate animal's diet. It is needed for bones, for eggs in a bird, and is an essential element in the proper function of nerves and muscles. Calcium absorbtion occurs in the small intestine, in conjunction with vitamin D3, however various factors can affect the way calcium is absorbed. A high protein diet can aid calcium absorbtion (but can also cause liver/kidney problems so isn't desirable) while a high fat diet can block calcium absorption by combining with calcium. A critical factor in calcium absorption is the calcium to phosphorus ratio (Ca:P) Ideally the food intake of the bird should have twice as much calcium as phosphorus, or a 2:1 Ca:P ratio. While the ideal ratio is 2:1, a range of 1:1 to 2.5:1 seems to not cause too many problems. Unfortunately seed has far more phosphorus than calcium and a typical seed mix for small parrots may have a ratio of 0.2:1 or worse. That is there is 10 times less calcium compared to phosphorus than is desirable.

While a bird can survive on an all seed diet with such a low Ca:P ratio, it will not be at maximum health and will be susceptible to various health and stress problems. A low calcium, and high phosphorus diet can result in a syndrone called Nutritional Hyperparathyroidism, where to maintain a suitable calcium level in the blood, calcium is taken from the bones and tissues, which can result in weakness, egg-binding, dead in the shell babies, splayed legs in babies, and bone fractures.

Adding vegetables to the seed diet doesn't help much. Remembering that to counteract the low calcium in seed we need to look at vegetables high in calcium and low in phosphorus, and Ca:P ratios for some common vegetables are as follows. Broccoli 0.8:1, carrots 0.6:1, celery 1.4:1, Silver Beet 1:1, Corn 0.03:1 (that is 1 part calcium to 33 parts phosphorus), Endive 2:1, green beans 1:1, Kale 2.5:1, parsley 3:1, peas 0.25:1, and Sweet potato 0.8:1.

So celery, endive, kale and parsley are good; broccoli, carrot peas and sweet potato don't help and corn is a disaster! Fruit doesn't help much either since most fruit is low in calcium, and at best a 1:1 ratio. An exception is papaya which has lots of calcium and a ratio of 4:1 for Ca:P.

To ensure that a bird gets enough calcium that can be utilized involves a difficult calculation. Given the relatively low absolute amounts of calcium in vegetables the bird would probably need at least 90% of it's diet the right vegetables (those with more calcium than phosphorus - corn is right out of the picture) to approach the proper Ca:P ratio.

It is of course possible to supplement with additives - usually in the water, but that is a very hit or miss approach. Do you know just how much water a day your birds drink - is it 1 ml, 5 ml, 10 ml? And if you do know how much water it drinks, do you know how much calcium and phosphorus in absolute amounts is in the foods it eats? If you don't you are relying on intuition and luck. And remember that too much calcium can cause as many problems as too little calcium.

In contrast by feeding a diet based around pellets, you know that the Ca:P ratio is going to be correct, that there is sufficient Ca in the diet, and by feeding mainly those vegetables that have a good Ca:P ratio you are not going to upset that balance. That means for instance that I limit the amount of corn I give the birds, I give a lot of endive and grow a lot of chinese greens which also have good ratios.

As you know I have two African Greys - given their known calcium problems there is no way I would trust their diet to the hit an dmiss approach of feeding seed, and they get a pellet diet with suitable fruit and vegies. All my pet birds do, I want them to be around me as long as possible and in as good a health as possible. They do get a bit of seed - after cage clean each night they have a pinch of seed as a treat - but their diet is built around pellets, and a variety of pellets.

I have more to say about the subject but once again it is getting late so more will have to wait for another evening.

cheers,

Mike

[zooyouthben]

because you have mentioned calcium to phosphrus i am now convoinced (they push this so much in dog food and at TAFE) but as the only parrots i keep are Lorikeets i am fine!
IN the Ca:P ratio it is on interest that i am best feeding whole animals rather than other mixes to teh frogmouth as there is nothing better than a natural carcass.

[avinet]

Lorikeets are a whole different ball game and I don't confess to being too sure of what their diet should be - I don't think anyone does although Debra McDonald has done some work with their nutrition and I must get hold of her work and read it. I did sit next to her at an AVES dinner a few years ago and had a long conversation about nutrition - but as tends to be the way of AVES I couldn't remember too muuch by the end of th evening

cheers,

Mike

[abby-oldaccount]

Ok you got me with the Ca:P ratio. One of the reason for me having a base mix and then adding according to requirements is because of this.
I purchased a book awhile ago called the healthy Bird cookbook. To be completely honest I wasn't thrilled with the recipes as it seemed that there was forever sugar and salt being added. This is easy enough to alter yourself though, just one thing I think is crap about the book.
What I did like was the first 78 pages that went into nutrition including that for the different species. Macs have a higher need for fat, zons need more VitA and less fat, conures higher fat less protein and more Vit K and of course grey/'toos with their higher calcium needs. There are suggested sources as to how to get these extras in according to the species and what foods to put in that are higher in these. I think that's why I like the idea of the species specific pellets as they do take into account the different dietary needs.
I've used the DrMacs with my grey and been very happy with it. Will need to get some more soon and look at trying some of the other species ones.
Yes I do agree with the whole calcium business.

[avinet]

avinet said:

Lorikeets are a whole different ball game and I don't confess to being too sure of what their diet should be -

That should have been "I confess to not being too sure of what their diet should be"

I'll have to start proof reading my posts, especially late at night

cheers,

Mike

[Jane]

Very interesting reading Thank-you very much everyone

Aviary Birds Question:
May I ask how everyone finds the wastage factor with pellets? I actually started thinking of pellets because I am getting frustrated at the enormous amount of wastage I get in my aviaries.
I have my seed mixed to what I want and its not anything in particular they're not eating, even whole sunnies are tossed out and when I clean the floors I must be picking up kilos of seed over a week

[AussieBirds]

Excellent article Mike, thank you so much for posting it, it is the most detailed and informative series of posts I have ever seen on this subject.

I feed my birds corn and lots of endive along with various fruit & other veggies, looks like I might have to alter my feeding regime ;D.

I was also told that celery was not much good for birds because of it's high water content however the leaves of the celery was the exception and was recommended, I look forward to more posts on this subject.

John

[farseeker]

Jane - I can only speak for Trouble and Jedi, but there was as much enjoyment gotten from flinging around pellets as there was from flinging around seed, haha.

[avinet]

Just some general comments tonight

Food waste is part and parcel of keeping parrots in my experience and that applies to seed and pellets equally. However there are some techniques to cut down on that waste.

If you are feeding seed, try to only put into the feeder as much seed as the bird is going to eat in a day. Most of us tend to fill the seed container and the bird becomes convinced that the tastiest seed is on the bottom. If there is only a limited amount of seed then the bird is more likely to eat it rather than play with it. Also limiting the amount of seed will usually make the bird eat more of the vegies, which will be healthier for the bird. Adrian Gallagher back in the 1990's wrote in a Parrot Society article that if a parrot is on a seed diet then 80% of it's food intake should be vegies and fruit.

If the bird is on a pellet diet using a small pellet size will lead to less waste. My Greys for instance get mostly Roudybush Mini pellets, no bigger than hulled oats in size. A large pellet tends to break up into bits as the bird bites into it and it doesn't by any means all land back in the feeder. Also I find that many birds are particular about the colour of the pellets if you use a coloured pellet such as Kaytee. For instance my cockatiels don't like red pellets and leave them in the dish. Fortunately my Crimson-wing and King Parrot like the red ones so I can recycle the ones left behind by the cockatiels into the Crimson-wing cage.

I use a lot of endive, and also like the Chinese greens such as Bok Choy, and Silver Beet. I would like to use more celery leaves (it is the first recommendation I make to customers) but I don't like celery so we rarely get it. Kale used to be readily available in the shops but seems to have disappeared around here now and it unfortunately doesn't grow well in my garden. I do give corn, but not much, just maybe 5 or 6 kernals to a bird a day. I also give some grated carrot, but again not a lot. Although they don't have a good Ca:P ratio they are a very good source of vitamin A and so are of value in small amounts. Another excellent food is chicory - quite a bit higher in calcium than endive and with around a 2:1 ratio for Ca:P. We also give some broccoli, capsicum, round beans, and zucchini but all in small amounts compared to the leafy greens.

cheers,

Mike

[mickp]

wow, there goes the best part of an hour reading & re-reading this post.

I guess that I am luckier than some with my finches in that they have the best of all worlds ( as far as I am concerned- hmm that may start some arguements lol) in the way of food.

they have the dried seed available at all times, fresh greens vegies & grasses, green seed (now days), live food (mealworms & maggots), beach sand on the cage floor supplies some grit while crushed oyster shells supplier more, cuttlefish is placed around the aviary and a few times a week their dry seed is given a coat of crushed cuttlefish and fresh water at least twice a day.

but after saying all that they also have access to pellets, no I dont buy the pellets specifically for the finches. they are bought for the quail but the finches have all at some stage had a feed of pellets while the quail always have seed.

so long as the birds are healthy and active I'm happy with what they are eating. I'm sure there is stuff that others will think of that I dont give my birds.
my belief is that if the food has some value then make it available and let the birds choose which they would like to eat, I know I wouldnt like to be told what to eat every day lol

[mickp]

lmao on re-reading that last post of mine.
I've wandered and waffled on, even procrastinated. but I believe in what I said as it makes sense to me in a round about way

brilliant question to ask John, sure has all of us interested and busy pecking at our keyboards

[vankarhi]

it made sense to me too Mick (but that might not mean much lol ;D )

[AussieBirds]

Yesterday, Sunday, I relented and bought a packet of crumbles, I mixed a 50/50 seed pellet dish and presented it to my birds, I have to say they are not too impressed with the mix yet, however I will persevere for a while and see how they accept the change, I do have to say that the pellet/crumble mix had omega 3 in it and all the good things, but to be honest with you it did smell a little ................. off kinda fishy.

Having said all that I must add the after I had purchased the pellets I was at a breeders place and asked him his opinion of the pellet diet, and to be honest with you he was far from complementary about it, he has been in the business of breeding and selling birds for over 30 years and his comments were " pellets diets are a beat up put forward by American breeders " and in his opinion, they had no value at all ". He feeds a seed diet with fruit and veggies with a supplementary vitamins added to the water every day he uses Ornithon powder and says it is the best if not a little expensive.

I still have an open mind on this subject as is evident by me purchasing the crumble/pellet product so I will keep you all informed on the progress of the change over, by the way he had a beautiful Eckie just five weeks old there, way out of my price range I might add, but it was a great looking bird.

John