Breeding

[AussieBirds]

Here is a question for all of you, we all know it is not good to crossbreed brother and sister, mother and son, father and Daughter and the like..............or is it, what are your thoughts on the question, is this applicable to non flocking birds, for instance, Eckies, ring neck, macaw and the birds that lead a singular existence or does it apply to all birds such as Budgies, cockatiels, Love Birds, finches and the like, I have a theory on all of this and I will join in the debate in due course, so let us know what are your thoughts on the subject.

John

[sypher]

Looking forward to your theory in time John

I once frowned upon the subject of knowingly breeding birds that are related.......but......This is how alot of mutations are developed, breeding for size and quality etc. Surely it happens in nature, especially in non flocking varieties. I was always told once is fine, but breeding from the same bloodline again is not good.

I have a related pair of Blue fronted amazons housed together. My plans were to buy another pair and split them up, but I havent been able to get another pair at this time. They are together now, and will probably stay that way. The cockbird has alot of blue colouring on his chest and vent area. It may pay keeping them together, you never know.

What are peoples thoughts also on the fertility, health etc of the birds that are related and the chicks from the related pair?

Shaun

[sadikilovebirds]

Good question John. This is the way i look at it, but everyone is differant. If there is a characteristic that you like in your own lines and you bred grandfather to granddaughter, for example, you would hopefully be wanting to breed birds that will most resemble the grandfather (seems that he passes on more of his genes). I my self, always like to expand my genepool as i feel that brother/sister father/daughter mother/son matings are too close and that you haven't really had a chance to see what they are producing first. I also feel that captive bred birds need to help to expand a genepool to ensure that we are not doubling or even tripling up on problems and faults and as breeders, we are responsible for this.

[Laraine]

I was advised by the person I bought my female white fronted Scarlett Chested, that if I wanted more white fronts (the male is a normal Scarlett) to put a son in with the mother to breed white fronts. Unfortunately they didn't breed last year, but obviously it is a very common event to get mutuations.

I have always been under the impression that constant inbreeding produces smaller and smaller birds. Sadly I have seen the results in humans of cousins having babies and it is a very sad life.

[Robyn]

Well good subject John. Approx 35 years ago i got 2 budgies for the kids, back then there was no advice what so ever up here on breeding & the such. So our little budgies turned out to be a pair & started to breed. I would imagine over time they were inbreeding. We didn't have any deaths or 2 headed babies. In the end i sold them all to the pet shop.

These day's i have always thought it wasn't a good idea to knowingly inbreed.....BUT.....I ask myself how big really, is the gene pool on most of the Exotics here in Australia. I have been told that only a few Sun Conures were imported into Australia & that goes for most of the exotics we have here. A breeder once told me that every sun is related. You have to wonder about that.

Now a breeder i also know had 2 suns together. Siblings. She had kept them back as they had a fair bit of yellow on them, well one day she was surprised with an egg in the nest box Yep they were fertile & that pair produced 4 healthy chicks. Size was the same as anything i produce. Nice big birds.

I'm not sure what i think about the whole thing. Especially when God only put 2 people on this earth & the ARK only held 2x2 of any animal. Lots of ??.

Laraine I also know of a father & daughter relationship. It's said he fathered 2 of her children. My kids went to school with those 2 boys & they appeared as normal as any other child. I also know one of my school teachers married his cousin & produced 2 very healthy children.

To be honest i really don't have any answers only that i have been told that inbreeding of any kind is wrong.

[madaussie]

Yes good subject well as robin said the arch had 2x2 to start the world again is it natures way or do us humans have morals that say no to it? don't know never thought to much on the subject.
-j

[avinet]

There were some experiments done with Rosellas in the 1980's involving breeding brother/sister over several generations. The initial pairs produced normal looking birds, but in succeeding generations size and quality deteriorated to such an extent that the experiment was halted prematurely. So, while an initial closely related pairing may not be a problem, unless frequent out-crossing to unrelated birds is done then the quality will deteriorate.

This effect can be seen in several species around today. It was noticeable when white-face cockatiels first appeared in Australia in the 1990's (almost certainly from a limited number of smuggled birds) that, due to inbreeding, the size of many of those birds in the early tears was pitifully small. Many of the initial breeders, given prices in the $1000's, were not prepared to be patient and out-cross to unrelated normals to get splits, but instead bred brother to sister repeatedly to maximize profit before the price started to fall.

The same happened with the Red-rump mutation bubble at the same time and also with Ringnecks. And the price of that greed and inbreeding is still to be seen today. I didn't go to the recent Parrot Society sale in Brisbane, but I have been told by those who did that the most noticeable feature was the small size of Red-rumps and Ringnecks. Some Red-rumps were no bigger than budgies!

I know that when I visited aviaries in America I was amazed by how much bigger their Ringnecks were in comparison to ours, due to their access until the early 1990's to wild caught birds that helped maintain the true size of the birds.

Breeding closely related birds is often necessary in the early stages of establishing a new mutation but it has to be done with care and with frequent out-crossing to unrelated normal birds to avoid the sorts of problems that affected white-face cockatiels. The budgie breeders are experts on this and there is plenty of advice in budgie circles on how to do this.

Robyn is right in that some of our exotics have developed from a very limited gene pool. Sun Conures were started from a few smuggled birds and probably have never been the subject of much further smuggling - but again the size of our Australian birds is smaller than seen in the USA.

Blue Quakers started here from 2 hens and 4 cocks. Two breeders took 3 each of these birds and as luck had it one breeders got the two hens (those days there was no DNA or surgical sexing). So all blue quakers probably come from those 2 hens and one cock. I believe the second breeder lost his birds through sickness. However the breeders with the two hens was well aware of budgie breeding techniques and with only one cock to two hens immediately had to set up a pair to breed splits and so from the start was able to breed splits to blues in succeeding generations. But even now if two blue quakers are paired up often the resulting babies are smaller than normal. It is always best to breed a blue with a split blue.

So, while a first generation closely related pairing will probably not cause any obvious problems, it is highly desirable to not repeat it for the second generation but to out cross to unrelated stock.

cheers,

Mike

[Laraine]

I know someone who used to breed Canaries, after several generations of them all breeding between themselves, the birds became very small.

Some years ago, when I was in hospital, there was a 19 year old in the ward who could not feed himself, walk, talk etc. It was a pitiful sight. We were told by the nurses that he was the result of cousins marrying and that there was a brother the same. Maybe genetics or blood grouping was the blame, but it was very very sad. Two years ago I was visiting in the same hospital and one of them was still in there.

[AussieBirds]

My initial thoughts on this subject is a great deal of uncertainty, I have been breeding budgies for a long time and I am by no means an expert so my experience in this field is based on a person that flock breeds and not selectively as the serious breeders do.

I breed all my birds in a flock situation they are all in the same 20ft long aviary, except the Peachface, and can mate with who they like, I know that budgies are not one mate for life but rather will have more than one partner and the same can be said for finches, I once had 90 baby Zebra finches in my aviary they just kept breeding and breeding and the inbreeding was very evident, my point is if they do this in captivity what do they do in the wild, my question here is, they cross breed in the wild and there doesn't seem to be any ill effects why should this effect the captivity breeding.

I have to add here I DON"T KNOW THE ANSWER so don't jump all over me please I bruise easily these days ;D I understand what everyone is saying about human close relationship breeding but I would assume that our genetic pool is different, can I get any further comments please?

John

[Robyn]

My thoughts as well John. I would imagine that families maybe do stay together in the wild & go on to breed.

I have also wondered especially when there is such a small gene pool with the exotics & since its illegal to import, how are future generations going to fair. Another thought that goes through my mind when i buy a pair of birds is how related are they really. We only have the say so of the seller.

Some of our own native parrots are very few in numbers in the wild. To make sure they don't disappear they would have to start a program where by they would have to inbreed to get that species back. Lots of . Does anyone really know??

From what i have seen in a first mating with my neighbors suns [ siblings] very steady birds. But these offspring would have to be out crossed. If you kept inbreeding within that family i guess you would have problems.

John i guess inbreeding in captivity is a little different sort of. In the wild i would say its easier for them to out cross due to the great distances they fly where in captivity even if you had 20 unrelated pairs how would that compare. BUT do they actually go outside that family circle.

One thing i have often thought about was the amount of budgies that flock together in the wild & how big is their gene pool. Are they actually all related. So as far as the flock of Eclectus up in Cape York I don't think there would be any difference seeing the cock mates with more than one hen. Now that's food for thought.

Would i inbreed if i had to my answer would be yes i can always outcross the next generation. Hopefully to unrelated birds.

Robyn

[Laraine]

My only comments on the "wild" versus "caged" birds in-breeding is that in the wild they are more likely to have the opportunity to have a variety of partners than in an aviary situation. So the problem of in-breeding might never occur.

Would I in-breed to get the mutation that I want, probably, but just the first time.

[madaussie]

Yes i would do it once
j

[Robyn]

Yes i get what your saying Laraine about wild versus caged....but....how closely related are the wild ones in the first place i would imagine there are family flocks that stay together & don't venture to far from their territory.

I wonder if there has been any research done in this area.

And yes with the aviary bred in a colony the chance of to much inbreeding would be more likely. But i would also have to say that if for instance you had 50 odd pairs of unrelated say "budgies" even though some may inbreed does not mean the next generation won't outcross.

[alemap]

If any of you are aware of the spix macaw recovery program it has had many problems due to the small gene pool, much inbreeding has taken place.There are only 71 birds in the official stud of which 50 are at alwabra wildlife preservation, loro parc in tenerife hatched 1 recently and holds 4prs, there are said to be few in private hands in switzerland. 1 of my favorite sites is blue macaws.org which is well worth a read.

[AussieBirds]

Apr 28, 2010 20:40:35 GMT 10 Laraine said:

My only comments on the "wild" versus "caged" birds in-breeding is that in the wild they are more likely to have the opportunity to have a variety of partners than in an aviary situation. So the problem of in-breeding might never occur.

Would I in-breed to get the mutation that I want, probably, but just the first time.

That's a good point Laraine yes the chances of inbreeding, especially with budgies, would be slim as there are so many in the flock but I am sure it happens more frequently with grass parrots and the like, for instance I have seen maybe 10 birds in a flock of red rumps although it has been my experience that they mate for life however nature being the way she is I am sure that during the cycle of life partners are lost and new ones found, maybe siblings, as I am sure this happens with other flocks of birds.

I use red rumps as an example only and could use other birds such as galahs, Corella's and other species of parrots, what about finches they flock and create colony's of birds and when i used to keep finches i found them using the same nest I have even seen them mating with a number of partners.

John

[vankarhi]

I am not an expert by any stretch of the word............but my parents used to breed and show long hair cats and german shepherd dogs. I know they would say that a parent/child or sibling/sibling maybe done once......then you must look for something outside their bloodlines. They said that you will get either very good dogs/cats or you will get very bad ones. I myself think it is wrong.........but I can see how when trying to breed certain characteristics especially with certain colours with birds............that it may need to be done .......... but really how much of this is for "our" pleasure???

It is like the show dogs/cats..........we breed what "we" think is desirable to look at ......... not what they were originally bred for and we end up with animals who have serious and quite often "genetic" problems...........and they still keep breeding from these animals just because "we" think it is aesthetically appealing. Like with the long hair cats...........they look like they have run into the back of a parked bus.....their faces are so flat...........they have breathing problems and eye problems sometimes and the same goes for some dogs. I also remember a time when my parents were showing German Shepherds..........to me they looked like hyena's.........with their low sloping backs ....... these dogs are supposed to be herding dogs?

I will step off my "inexperienced" soap box now

[avinet]

There has been some research on relatedness of wild pairs of parrots, in particularly I remember reading about Eastern Rosella in New England, NSW. I think it was about 10 to 15% of pairs were found to be brother/sister. That is perhaps not unexpected for birds such as Rosellas who tend to keep to small family flocks rather than larger communal flocks.

If a brother/sister keep together for a while while flying with their parents after fledging then there is a possibility they may still be together when it is time for breeding. However there is a much greater chance that they will disperse sufficiently to find an unrelated mate, and the chances of a second generation of brother/sister becomes 1 to 1.5%, and the third generation becomes very unlikely.

In species that flock, such as Galahs and Corellas then the chances of brother/sister pairings are far less likely than with non-flocking species.

The zoos have well developed protocols for pairing up highly endangered animals in a captive breeding programme. There are computer programs to aid in selecting the best mates based on the degree of relatedness and brother/sister type of pairings would be the absolute last resort.

Those who saw the TV programme about dog breeding in the UK will be aware of the dangers of constant inbreeding - German Shepherds that can hardly walk, Cavaliers with brains too big for their skulls, and many other problems.

We are seeing the problems of too much inbreeding in exotic birds already in Australia - Ringnecks, Sun Conures and Quakers that are noticeably smaller than those in the USA for instance.

Never allow more than one generation of inbreeding before out-crossing to unrelated birds.

cheers,

Mike


cheers,

Mike