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Post by anzac on Feb 21, 2012 10:54:16 GMT 10
Meant to add I also have an aviary with about 12 canaries that breed but only one of the hens only had 3 babies this year so I mainly keep them myself.
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Gerard
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Hototo
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Post by Gerard on Feb 21, 2012 18:47:54 GMT 10
Mike, I know you would have gone through the process of conversion many times and no doubt some birds would have been easier than others, but what were some of the methods you used other than some of those we see published or on Youtube and the like? The other thing I wanted to ask you, is what differences did you see in your birds say a month or two later after they had been on the pellet diet?  BTW, I didn't get around to ordering the Roudybush today, it was pretty hectic at work and i would like to ring the distributor and find out if there is anywhere I can acquire some locally, before I jump on-line and push the enter button.  |
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Post by avinet on Feb 21, 2012 20:54:40 GMT 10
Mike, I know you would have gone through the process of conversion many times and no doubt some birds would have been easier than others, but what were some of the methods you used other than some of those we see published or on Youtube and the like? The other thing I wanted to ask you, is what differences did you see in your birds say a month or two later after they had been on the pellet diet? I never had any special can't fail method - but never had any major issues with a conversion. Possibly since I always had a few birds around and once one bird tries something the others get curious and try as well. My general method was to first put some pellets (mini size) in a dish next to the seed dish. If they didn't try that then I would mix some pellets in with the seed. Finally I would put a layer of pellets over the seed (always having the feeder in the same place since the bird regarded that location as the food location) so that if the bird wanted to get to the seed it had to move the pellets aside to get to the seed. In the process they would likely eat some of it and realize it was good food. I never did it "cold turkey" by suddenly removing seed and replacing with pellets - that waited until I knew they were eating some pellets. As for a change in appearance -that can often not occur until the next moult, and if a bird is basically healthy, as a young bird that eats a good selection of fresh food will be, then you might not notice any difference at all. The benefits of pellets for a bird on basically a seed and good fresh food diet may not occur for 10 years. My oldest pet cockatiel hatched Sept 1991, and two others in spring 1992. Around 2001 I noticed some minor problems with their feathering - one Pearl hen was losing her pearling for instance - so I took them down to visit Adrian Gallagher (the vet in the wing transplanting video I mentioned a few days ago in another thread). He pointed out several signs of dietary problems developing, confirmed by blood work - signs pointing principally to liver problems developing. I then changed them to pellets, which didn't prove to be a problem, and by the next moult a few months later they had returned to excellent health, and the pearl had regained he pearls. That was 10 years ago and those birds, which would likely have died within a year or two from liver damage, are still with me and in excellent health, although one has cataract eye problems and another is developing some arthritis. So my thoughts are that a bird can do pretty well on a seed plus plenty of fresh food diet, but it will do well for much longer on a pellet based diet. And I might add I still give them as much fresh food as they want to eat, even though they get pellets - principally for the environmental enrichment the variety that provides. cheers, Mike |
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mango
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Post by mango on Feb 21, 2012 21:05:28 GMT 10
No Roudybush at the nearest 4 petstores to me at all. (Hills District, Sydney) None are willing or able to order in either, and some look plain annoyed that I even asked and didnt just buy what they had on offer!  |
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Gerard
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Hototo
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Post by Gerard on Feb 21, 2012 22:40:20 GMT 10
Mike, it's funny how that works...when one has a go, then the others follow. Hototo and Chiku's favourite yum-yum of choice are snow pea sprouts. Having cottoned onto this after a little bit of experimentation I have begun using this as their behavioural treat. When I first got them, they never flapped around the cage or anything like that, they would just calmly walk along the perches to the other side, but as soon as I put a hand in the mobile aviary, well that is another story. I guess that being aviary birds their only experience with hands was being caught. The good thing about snow pea sprouts is that they are 4 or so inches long. Once Chiku started taking them from my hand well Hototo wasn't going to miss out on his share either. Now they will pick the leaves off them just 5mm from my hand just a week later. They are now actually starting to initiate communication with me and were quite direct about it today. When I bought them the pet shop owner informed me that they had just finished moulting a couple of weeks before. So I waited a month, as I wanted to be sure that their tail feathers had completely grown before I wormed them. Today was the second and last day of their worming treatment. When I got home, as soon as I got in the front door they jumped up onto the perch closest to the height of my head and were quite pointed at the water dish. I was in absolutely as to no doubt what they were referring to. It was like they were saying, "Where did you get this stuff from...Fukushima!" The good news for them is they won't have to have it tomorrow. Now that they seem to have well and truly settled in, I'll have to find them some toys. I'll dig out the digital camera on the weekend and post some pics. Thanks again.
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Gerard
Bronze Member
Hototo
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Post by Gerard on Feb 21, 2012 22:48:20 GMT 10
Mango, I didn't have time to call the distributor today, but I will make a point of doing it tomorrow. I'll ask about both our areas. Otherwise we'll just have to go on-line to acquire it. In the meantime though, have you had a go with your Vetafarm ones? |
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mango
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Post by mango on Feb 21, 2012 23:06:09 GMT 10
Yea, the male reluctantly nibbles on the vetafarm pellets, I think they are too large tho, they are the South American mix ones, not minis. So I crush them up a bit or make rissoles out of them.
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Post by anzac on Feb 22, 2012 15:34:42 GMT 10
Quick question, what's the difference between parrot parrots and crumbles? Just crushed up pellets?
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Gerard
Bronze Member
Hototo
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Post by Gerard on Feb 22, 2012 18:19:28 GMT 10
Mango, I spoke to the Australian distributor for Roudybush today. There is a shop called Pet Shop Australia, at least that's what I think Harry said but it was a pretty crappy line, which is somewhere in your vicinity. Might have been Vet Shop Australia. Like our mate Mike he's pretty helpful, so if you can't find it give him a call. Further more if someone viewing this thread knows the shop I'm referring to near the Hills district of Sydney please don't hesitate to post.
Further on this, Harry said he has absolutely nobody here in Melbourne that stocks it. He said Victoria is the hardest market has ever tried to crack. So it looks like I'll have to go on-line.
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Gerard
Bronze Member
Hototo
Posts: 165
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Post by Gerard on Feb 22, 2012 18:55:33 GMT 10
I couldn't be 100% sure Anzac, but I think you're probably right. The crumbles may be crushed maintenance pellets and the nest mate may be crushed up breeder pellets. Mike would probably be able to give a more definitive answer.
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Post by avinet on Feb 22, 2012 20:52:20 GMT 10
Quick question, what's the difference between parrot parrots and crumbles? Just crushed up pellets? Yes |
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Post by avinet on Feb 22, 2012 21:12:27 GMT 10
Today was the second and last day of their worming treatment. When I got home, as soon as I got in the front door they jumped up onto the perch closest to the height of my head and were quite pointed at the water dish. I was in absolutely as to no doubt what they were referring to. It was like they were saying, "Where did you get this stuff from...Fukushima!" The good news for them is they won't have to have it tomorrow. Which wormer are you using? Some have a very bitter taste and birds try to avoid drinking it as much as possible. The drug causing that bitter taste is Levamisole, which treats Roundworm. I always avoid wormers containing it - Avitrol Plus is a commonly seen one - and I prefer to use Vetafarm's Wormout Gel. Wormout Gel uses Oxfendazole to treat roundworm, which it does very effectively and does not have a taste to deter the bird from drinking. Most wormers use Praziquantel as the component to treat tapeworm which doesn't appear to affect the taste. The levamisole is so bad that if a wormer containing it is given to budgies the chances are the budgie will not drink at all until normal water returns. An experiment on wormers in the early 1990's at Queensland Uni using budgies found that a group of budgies given Levamisole in their water did not drink for many days - being desert birds they have a very water efficient metabolism  So always worm budgies with Wormout Gel. cheers, Mike |
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Gerard
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Hototo
Posts: 165
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Post by Gerard on Feb 23, 2012 4:03:56 GMT 10
Mike, I used the Vetafarm Wormout Gel. I also didn't give them any fruit or vegies during this period so that it was the only source of water available to them. Even being a gel it wasn't the easiest stuff to dissolve though. Plenty of stirring required. Given that these two live inside and don't come into direct contact with other animals when do you think I should do it again, if at all? As they are grass parrots they like to run around the bottom of the cage a fair bit, so I cover the grid with newspaper to make it easier for them. I change it daily. All fruit and vegies are bought from the Supermarket or Greengrocer and washed.
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Post by avinet on Feb 23, 2012 9:12:42 GMT 10
Mike, I used the Vetafarm Wormout Gel. I also didn't give them any fruit or vegies during this period so that it was the only source of water available to them. Even being a gel it wasn't the easiest stuff to dissolve though. Plenty of stirring required. Given that these two live inside and don't come into direct contact with other animals when do you think I should do it again, if at all? It is a pain to mix in - I use a small kitchen whisk - suitable to use in a cup. Luke-warm water also helps. Then let it cool down - maybe in the fridge for a short while. However it does work very well, one of Vetafarm's better products. I never worm my inside birds - well haven't for around 4 years anyway. Even my aviary birds don't get wormed, even though we have a flock of pigeons hanging around a lot of the day. I only worm if I suspect a problem with the birds. In your situation I wouldn't be worming at all, but if it makes you feel better then every 6 months is plenty. However when we had our shop we would worm all birds monthly, since with the new birds coming in and out there was always a chance of a bird with worms within a batch. Additionally all incoming parrots would be crop wormed with Wormout Gel, except for budgies which would be cropped with Ivermectin, which did roundworm and scaly mite as well. Finches would generally be isolated for 3 days and wormed with Wormout Gel before going into the aviaries. cheers, Mike |
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Post by anzac on Feb 23, 2012 10:51:43 GMT 10
Quick question, what's the difference between parrot parrots and crumbles? Just crushed up pellets? Yes So why do they do that, and for my turks what should I use? I do have both (but the crumbles are Passwells) and the canaries eat it as well. |
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Post by anzac on Feb 23, 2012 11:14:33 GMT 10
Mike, I used the Vetafarm Wormout Gel. I also didn't give them any fruit or vegies during this period so that it was the only source of water available to them. Even being a gel it wasn't the easiest stuff to dissolve though. Plenty of stirring required. Given that these two live inside and don't come into direct contact with other animals when do you think I should do it again, if at all? It is a pain to mix in - I use a small kitchen whisk - suitable to use in a cup. Luke-warm water also helps. Then let it cool down - maybe in the fridge for a short while. However it does work very well, one of Vetafarm's better products. I never worm my inside birds - well haven't for around 4 years anyway. Even my aviary birds don't get wormed, even though we have a flock of pigeons hanging around a lot of the day. I only worm if I suspect a problem with the birds. In your situation I wouldn't be worming at all, but if it makes you feel better then every 6 months is plenty. However when we had our shop we would worm all birds monthly, since with the new birds coming in and out there was always a chance of a bird with worms within a batch. Additionally all incoming parrots would be crop wormed with Wormout Gel, except for budgies which would be cropped with Ivermectin, which did roundworm and scaly mite as well. Finches would generally be isolated for 3 days and wormed with Wormout Gel before going into the aviaries. cheers, Mike That's really interesting you say that Mike, as I never worm the canaries but worm the turks regularly as I thought grass parrots were more susceptible to worms? What would you recommend for the aviary turks then Mike? They have a paved stone floor. |
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Post by avinet on Feb 23, 2012 11:34:16 GMT 10
That's really interesting you say that Mike, as I never worm the canaries but worm the turks regularly as I thought grass parrots were more susceptible to worms? What would you recommend for the aviary turks then Mike? They have a paved stone floor. Since they are Turks and outside, to be safe, worm every three months. Inside birds virtually never catch worms, while I keep a close enough eye on my outside birds to see if a problem is developing and then take appropriate action - I rely on my experience to spot a problem. If in doubt, better safe than sorry. The two types of worms most at risk are roundworm and tapeworm. Roundworm eggs are passed out through droppings and a bird can become infected by swallowing some of those eggs, which can survive on the floor of an aviary for many months, if not years. So any bird that pecks around on the ground is at risk of picking up some roundworm eggs. Tapeworm have to pass through an intermediate host, often an insect. A bird with tapeworm will pass eggs in it's droppings and then an insect needs to swallow that egg. It then develops into a larvae, inside the insect, and a new bird can become infected by eating that insect. Many parrots will occasionally eat an insect, but finches are more likely to and so I have seen tapeworm more often in finches than parrots. cheers, Mike |
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Post by avinet on Feb 23, 2012 11:38:53 GMT 10
So why do they do that, and for my turks what should I use? I do have both (but the crumbles are Passwells) and the canaries eat it as well. Well, smaller birds would be unable to eat large pellets, so they produce the different size foods to suit different size birds. Different size pellets are obviously made that way but I have always got the impression by looking at them that the crumbles have been crushed from larger pellets. cheers, Mike |
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Gerard
Bronze Member
Hototo
Posts: 165
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Post by Gerard on Feb 23, 2012 19:19:07 GMT 10
Anzac, I wormed the Hooded Parrots, because they were essentially aviary birds before I bought them and they had just finished moulting before I got them. Hooded Parrots and Golden-Shouldered Parrots are known for their ability to dig. If the aviary they were housed in had a dirt floor then there would be a reasonable chance they could have worms. Secondly, the active ingredient in some worming medications can cause all growing tail feathers to fall out. I know the pet shop didn't worm them, because they informed me and because they have very long tail feathers I wanted to be sure that they had fully grown before I wormed them. No permanent damage is done as they will grow back during the next moult, but a Hooded Parrot with no tail feathers for a while would be an odd looking sight. Mike would be able to tell us which active ingredient causes this. However, the text I acquired this information from was written in 1997. It is called "A Guide to Neophema & Psephotus Grass Parrots" published by Australian Birdkeeper Publications. It sells for about $30-$35. You should be able to acquire it at your local pet shop. I'm sure that Mike would be very familiar with this book as it was about the only sort of real information of any substance I could find on my scarlets when I bought them about 8 years ago. There has recently been a much more thorough book released just recently on Neophema and Neopsephotus grass parrots and all their mutations. It sells for about $60-$70, but once again, it is one of the very few books devoted to Australian Grass Parrots. Mike may be able to recommend a couple of others for us as well. I know Mike will agree with me here, but there is something special about a good old fashioned book in your hand. An electronic or Kindle version somehow just isn't the same. Ahhhhh...a nice hot coffee, laced with a bit of Irish Whiskey, whipped cream dusted with chocolate on top, book in hand, favourite chair...can't beat it. Except when we're playing with our birds. Hope you will find these useful Anzac.  By the way Mike have you ever thought of doing a book? There is an enormous wealth of useful information rattling about in that head of yours. You'd get plenty of encouragement from all of us on this forum...and yes I am serious. In fact, I'd bet on it that most of the senior members that have been here for some time would only be too happy to contribute their ideas, photos, etc, where required if you ever wanted to go down this path. ;D |
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Post by avinet on Feb 23, 2012 22:41:11 GMT 10
Secondly, the active ingredient in some worming medications can cause all growing tail feathers to fall out. I know the pet shop didn't worm them, because they informed me and because they have very long tail feathers I wanted to be sure that they had fully grown before I wormed them. No permanent damage is done as they will grow back during the next moult, but a Hooded Parrot with no tail feathers for a while would be an odd looking sight. Mike would be able to tell us which active ingredient causes this. However, the text I acquired this information from was written in 1997. It is called "A Guide to Neophema & Psephotus Grass Parrots" published by Australian Birdkeeper Publications. I'm not sure where you read that the tail feathers can fall out with some wormers. As far as I can find, the book you refer to from ABK only says "Fenbendazole and oxfendazole should not be used during moulting as they may cause feather abnormalities." - on p73 of the Neophema Guide 1997 2nd edition. That issue has been well known since the early 1990's and does not cause feather loss - merely some stress bars across that part of the feather that was growing at the time of medication. Those ABK Guides to Neophemas remain the best there is for the Neophemas - the 3rd edition is a great book, especially for those into mutations, but since the 3rd edition restricts itself to Neophema and Neopsephotus (the Bourke) the Hooded is excluded from it. The only other book is by Stan Sindel - 1992 - and is rather dated now - but still a good read if a copy can be found, I'm not sure it will still be available new. Certainly do agree - my bird library is around 200 books, lots of club magazines, a near full set of Australian Birdkeeper since issue 1 as well a DVD's and VHS tapes. I don't own an Ebook device No - too old and enjoying retirement too much these days to go through a major book writing experience. Anyway there are plenty of good books out there already, and these days that darn internet is replacing books anyway. In stead I write articles for our club magazine which eventually will mostly find their way onto the net at scas.org.au/cheers, Mike |
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So always worm budgies with Wormout Gel.