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Post by josiedownunda on Mar 10, 2005 0:01:35 GMT 10
Hi all,
I am currently handfeeding 4 babies around 4 weeks old. Yesterday...or earlier today...depends when i click the post button.......one of the chicks regurgitated some of its feed. I had to go out and when I returned and went to feed I noticed some darker droppings. Not black but darker brown than the usual colur from the formula. One chick looked decidedly pale coloured. His feet and beak were not pink at all....mind you he was perfectly ok at the previous feed. He seemed cooler than the others so i gave him some psittavet and electrolytes and added some heat but within about 30 minutes he was gone. I have never seen or heard anything like this before. He went from a happy hungry inquisitive baby at 10am to dead at 6pm. Anyone got any ideas on this? All the others are fine.
Thanks
Jo-Anne
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Post by lovemytiels on Mar 10, 2005 5:15:07 GMT 10
Hi Jo-anne. I lost 4 baby chicks to exactly these probems about a month ago & have been chasing the answer every since. When I took them out for h/rearing at an earlier age I noticed something was very wrong. Their beaks & legs were very pale. I proceeded to h/rear as normal but like you they would reguritate some of their food. They did not put on weight even though I was feeding them every 2 hours, were cold even though the temperature was right, I could only get 1 ml of food in them even though they were 2 weeks old & if I tried to keep streching their crop that little bit more, but they would end up gagging. The poor little things made it to a week & then died. Very upsetting. Earlier in the year I also had some other babies with a similar problem & I lost 2. I did take gram stains to my avain vet & nothing showed up & his response then was oh well if it dies I will do an autopsy. Very insensitive I felt as I had 4 sick babies at the time & crying out for help & 2 of those babies did survive but, due to the problems they are now stunted. They eat & eat but never put on weight. A friend of mine also lost 8 ringnecks to this problem too, so we are still chasing the answers with no luck As I was really peeved with my vet & it was holiday time & I really didn't want to keep a body in the freezer, I never got that autopsy done, my mistake I know as I lost 4 more to the same problems. So is this a new virus affecting our birds, I just don't know but i will keep looking to get answers, Cheers for now Anna
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Post by kim1 on Mar 10, 2005 7:34:35 GMT 10
a new virus? now thats really scary, I've lost a couple to something simular last year but never could find out what it was, I blamed the handrearing mix I was useing and this year I was going to use a different mix, but it sounds a bit more serious than that. please let us know if you find out any more.
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Post by josiedownunda on Mar 10, 2005 8:44:13 GMT 10
Gee Anna I am so sorry to hear you lost all those babies. This is the first one ...and only one...that I have lost like this. I am not really thinking on teh lines of a virus though...if it was then I would think it would affect all the chicks. ...plus it happened so suddenly. I was thinking more that possibly while I was out that baby may have climbed higher in the cage and fallen resulting in internal bleeding or something. Or even the possiblity that because I had actually used a crop needle to feed him that somehow I had caused an injury that resulted in bleeding. The food in his crop was not blood stained and smelt fine and it was still functioning well. No signs of yeast either. I am a bit baffled but I will admit if another one passes the same way I will be getting some tests done to find out definitely why!
Jo-Anne
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Post by kim1 on Mar 10, 2005 9:10:01 GMT 10
some viruses don't affect all birds, eg psittacosis, which can kill and spread rapidly, all your birds can get sick or some may not show any sympthons and just carry it instead. if the crop needle had pierced the crop the food is usually bloodstained, but I have heard of the needle piercing the skin and depositing the food between the skin layers, but I would think this would look different to a normal full crop, but I've never seen it. I've heard of bowel infections killing quickly like this but again I've never experienced this in my chicks so I'm not sure what the sympthons would be, hope someone can shed light on this for you.
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Post by AussieBirds on Mar 10, 2005 9:44:50 GMT 10
Other than the way the birds reacted and eventually passed can you find any other simularities, for instance, the hand raising mix or such things. It is especially hard when you loose babies and my thoughts go out to you both.
John
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Post by josiedownunda on Mar 10, 2005 9:58:30 GMT 10
Well I was using Hagen tropican formula. It is the same batch I have used to feed the last few clutches with no bad results.The chick was 29 days old and was pulled at 17 days old. The day he died he weighed 115gms and had been perfect till a few hours before. I have ruled out poisons and external toxins as all babies would have been affected. I wasn't home when he went downhill so fast so it wasn't like teflon poisoning or such.
Apart from that info there isn't much more to tell.
Jo-Anne
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Post by lovemytiels on Mar 10, 2005 10:02:27 GMT 10
My first reaction was the h/rear mix, but no it wasn't that, Then I considered, they way I feed & no wasn't that. They had no indication of slow crop or sour crop as I checked out the contents of one of their crops just to make sure. I am sure the babies only survived that long due to my stubbiness but my friends ringnecks died very suddenly as well. I have never come across this before & I did have 4 other babies in the brooder in a seperate box but they were only afected a little & are now big healthy birds. So I am still thinking some sort of virus, & I tried everything. All I know is that the babies were very pale to look at & died. Everything I have now has been scrubbed out, disinfected , steamed out just to make sure, but I have finished now till the new breeding season, so fingers crossed it will not resurface. I just wish my avain vet could have been of more help. I will be looking around for a new avain vet I think as it cost me heaps with very little results plus losing so many babies was gut retching & heartbreaking. This is the first time for many years that I have lost so many in one hit, & I know I am not perfect but I think I am experienced enough in h/rearing not to loose any to sour crop etc. So will keep looking & I hope you don't loose any more Jo-Anne. Cheers Anna
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Post by AussieBirds on Mar 10, 2005 10:03:58 GMT 10
Knowing you both as I do I'm sure you have investagated every possible cause, but it is a worry when you cant put your finger on the cause.
John
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Post by billspets on Mar 10, 2005 10:20:44 GMT 10
well i must admit that i lost some babies in pretty much tha same manner and i to have gone threw all possabilities i belive it was down to a bacterial virus but not 100% on that
i also went threw the foor to the birds upkeep and hygein the whole lot and the only thing i could come down to was a friends bird that was ill an he bought it to my place to see if i can help it it ended up passing away
yes i can here it now """" you fool """" but i thought i was doing the right thing but i have lernt
hope this sheds some light
regards
bill
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Post by SunConure on Mar 10, 2005 10:32:13 GMT 10
so sorry to hear that you lost a chick i feel for you. Its not easy to see an animal die.
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Post by billspets on Mar 10, 2005 10:40:37 GMT 10
question for all
does everybody have wild birds hanging around there hose if so what type as i feel it may have something to do with this may be
regards
bill
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Post by lovemytiels on Mar 10, 2005 11:11:48 GMT 10
Well it has me stumped Bill. I thought it might have been contaminated h/rear mix but I bought fresh stuff & no differance. I have searched the web looking for answers but for a few more people to have the same thing something is suss but don't know what yet. As I said my friend lost 8 baby ringnecks. They had pale beak & legs, were eating , then suddenly died, mine just hung on for a bit longer. Even considered the bird flu but the symptons were completly different.  . As to wild birds I had by breeding birds under my back verandah in big breeding cages with no access for the birds.  Cheers Anna |
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Post by kim1 on Mar 10, 2005 11:35:18 GMT 10
It is your worst fear when you are handraiseing a bunch of chicks and they start to die, gives you a horrible cold feeling of dread when you realize it has the potential to kill the lot. I don't think it can be the rearing mix when I look back on the couple I lost as I was raiseing 21 babies useing the same batch of vetafarm mix, but just incase I'm going to try Avione this year. I boil everything each feed(wears out the syringes though) and then soak everything in Milton that you sterilize babies bottles in then rinse with boiled water before use,and I change the bedding twice each day. so I don't think it's hygene, the couple I lost were 3 weeks old, unless it's some sort of genetic thing it can only be viral or bacterial infection.
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Post by lovemytiels on Mar 10, 2005 12:41:30 GMT 10
MMMMMMMM this is certainly baffling. The first lot of babies that were sick I had grams stains done & nothing showed up. Now does that mean that it could be viral & not bacteria as bacteria usually shows up in grams stains?  ?. I had 2 babies survive from the first lot of 4 but they are quite stunted now & weigh bugger all, even though they eat non stop plus I suspect they also might have permanent kidney damage due to the waterery poops plus they drink heaps of water. I have these two on probiotics now but I suspect they will not have a long life, but i will care for them diligently for as long as I have them. One was my first ever platinum pied female & my very first w/faced baby & they are dear little souls. Cheers Anna |
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Post by petiel on Mar 10, 2005 12:49:11 GMT 10
Could the birds have mite. One day I had pale baby birds in the nest box and found I had mite which were sucking the blood out of the chicks, and making them pale.
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Post by lovemytiels on Mar 10, 2005 13:19:14 GMT 10
Hi Petiel, I wish it was in my case but that is one of the first things I do when I take babies out for h/rearing is check them out for mites & all the babies were mite free. Don't know about Jo-Annes baby though. Thanks I really appreciate your imput. Cheers Anna
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Post by josiedownunda on Mar 10, 2005 13:22:55 GMT 10
Nope definitely not lice! I have been there done that one before and now I am vigilant regarding lice and mites. I check the chicks everyday in the nestbox for signs and have put Skatta 7 in the boxes to help prevent infestations. Actually it was my first thought when Anna mentioned pale chicks but seeing it had no bearing on the one I lost I gave the idea away.
Jo-Anne
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Post by josiedownunda on Mar 10, 2005 13:28:28 GMT 10
Very interesting Kim! I hadf a problem last year with a wfpied clutch that were small and then 1 died with crop stasis and the remaining 2 were very small. A vet did tests on 1 survivor and everything came back fine...his suggestion was maybe a slow maturer...I wasn't convinced. I WAS using VETAFARM!!!! And that just reminded me that yesterday morning when I fed I was running short on Hagen and mixed in some Vetafarm for the 2pm feed to see them through till I bought the new Hagen at 5pm. I did vow last year I would never use Vetafarm again but I had no choice as it was all I had left. Expiry date was ok and it had been kept sealed. Unfortunately i cannot even check the date and batch number as the packaging went in the trash yesterday and is gone. Darn! I am beginning to wonder about the Vetafarm idea again!
Jo-Anne
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Post by josiedownunda on Mar 10, 2005 13:30:10 GMT 10
Anna,
What formula were you using? Seems Kim and I have 1 thing in common and that is the formula so far.
Jo-Anne
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. As to wild birds I had by breeding birds under my back verandah in big breeding cages with no access for the birds. 
?. I had 2 babies survive from the first lot of 4 but they are quite stunted now & weigh bugger all, even though they eat non stop plus I suspect they also might have permanent kidney damage due to the waterery poops plus they drink heaps of water. I have these two on probiotics now but I suspect they will not have a long life, but i will care for them diligently for as long as I have them. One was my first ever platinum pied female & my very first w/faced baby & they are dear little souls. Cheers Anna
